Oh no, the Copper One has hit a weird empty space in her brain! Let's fill it with information!
Actually all that means is I've got a question I can't seem to Google up the proper answer to (dragons tend to be very poor Googlers apparently).
As much as I love to play noble characters, I'm afraid I don't really know as much as I'd like in regards to their children. I can write up day-to-day doings about their lives, but there's one little thing I can't quite put my finger on...
Primarily the question I seek to answer is "what title(s) do sons & daughters have pre-marriage?" But here's a few other things related that are pinging about my head in that empty, information-lacking spot:
Do bastard children gain anything at all in regards to titles? I remember reading that in the very least they MIGHT get a decent education and acknowledgement/care from their noble-born parent, but far as I'm aware they're just seen as any other person, maybe slightly above a commoner. Please correct me if I'm wrong!
How do titles of the children, if any are given before marriage/inheriting the estate, differ between noble ranks (lords & ladies, duke & duchess, &c)
Side-note: where Kings & queens are concerned, I have that down pretty well, though any additional info (especially with the illegitimate children!) would be appreciated! Also out of curiosity, do the children of emperors use 'prince(ss)' just as a king's would, even though they tend to be seen as 'higher' on the totem pole of power than said king?
Actually all that means is I've got a question I can't seem to Google up the proper answer to (dragons tend to be very poor Googlers apparently).
As much as I love to play noble characters, I'm afraid I don't really know as much as I'd like in regards to their children. I can write up day-to-day doings about their lives, but there's one little thing I can't quite put my finger on...
Primarily the question I seek to answer is "what title(s) do sons & daughters have pre-marriage?" But here's a few other things related that are pinging about my head in that empty, information-lacking spot:
Do bastard children gain anything at all in regards to titles? I remember reading that in the very least they MIGHT get a decent education and acknowledgement/care from their noble-born parent, but far as I'm aware they're just seen as any other person, maybe slightly above a commoner. Please correct me if I'm wrong!
How do titles of the children, if any are given before marriage/inheriting the estate, differ between noble ranks (lords & ladies, duke & duchess, &c)
Side-note: where Kings & queens are concerned, I have that down pretty well, though any additional info (especially with the illegitimate children!) would be appreciated! Also out of curiosity, do the children of emperors use 'prince(ss)' just as a king's would, even though they tend to be seen as 'higher' on the totem pole of power than said king?
The rules vary between country to country, and even era to era.
- In Modern Days the term 'duke' and 'baron' have more to do with land ownership than royal status. In fact, if I had a couple hundred thousand pounds to spare I could buy my very own title. I suspect who gets what title has a lot to do with behind the scenes politics. Heir to the British throne Prince Charles of Wales has no noble title (except for prince) despite both his younger brothers and his eldest son having one. Prince Christian of Denmark is a count despite being unmarried and only eight years old.
- A little bit of googling myself brought up this document http://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/noblesse.htm which explains the titles in regards to France. It seems Bastards can be given a noble title if the sovereign decides to legitimise them.
- However, I don't know if the same applies to other countries. Citing the ever wonderful CGP Grey as my source, in Britain bastards are considered 'naturally dead' and may never inherit the crown.
- In Modern Days the term 'duke' and 'baron' have more to do with land ownership than royal status. In fact, if I had a couple hundred thousand pounds to spare I could buy my very own title. I suspect who gets what title has a lot to do with behind the scenes politics. Heir to the British throne Prince Charles of Wales has no noble title (except for prince) despite both his younger brothers and his eldest son having one. Prince Christian of Denmark is a count despite being unmarried and only eight years old.
- A little bit of googling myself brought up this document http://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/noblesse.htm which explains the titles in regards to France. It seems Bastards can be given a noble title if the sovereign decides to legitimise them.
- However, I don't know if the same applies to other countries. Citing the ever wonderful CGP Grey as my source, in Britain bastards are considered 'naturally dead' and may never inherit the crown.
It reeeeally depends on where and what era you're talking about, haha. A good term to Google here is 'courtesy titles', though.
During the Renaissance, for example, they were given the title 'lord'/'lady' if they were the offspring of a marquis or duke. If they were the offspring of an earl, only the eldest son got the title 'lord'; all the daughters of an earl got styled 'lady', however, and they retained that title even if they got married to a commoner. Children of knights, barons, and viscounts got no titles.
Modern courtesy titles are kinda complicated and look like they vary from region to region. Here's some stuff about the UK, for example.
Bastard children would probably only get privileges if acknowledged by the noble parent; otherwise they were just any other commoner. Maybe slightly more likely to get a position (working, that is) in the noble's household, perhaps, but it probably depended on the particular household/lord.
During the Renaissance, for example, they were given the title 'lord'/'lady' if they were the offspring of a marquis or duke. If they were the offspring of an earl, only the eldest son got the title 'lord'; all the daughters of an earl got styled 'lady', however, and they retained that title even if they got married to a commoner. Children of knights, barons, and viscounts got no titles.
Modern courtesy titles are kinda complicated and look like they vary from region to region. Here's some stuff about the UK, for example.
Bastard children would probably only get privileges if acknowledged by the noble parent; otherwise they were just any other commoner. Maybe slightly more likely to get a position (working, that is) in the noble's household, perhaps, but it probably depended on the particular household/lord.
Oh, excellent! This is all good to know on all fronts! *cracks knuckles* I'll make a note tomorrow (when I'm less sleepy!) to click around on the links and do proper reading and viewing, but the info you're both giving me is getting my brain off to a decent start on filling in that gap of information I've got going on. I knew little bits and pieces from past readings (and I'm very familiar with CGP Grey's videos he's been doing in regards to all things political and sovereign! Man I love his videos! 
)
Admittedly what I'm working with, fictionally speaking, doesn't follow a very rigid real-life structure; though some points, like how I'd like politics and nobility to work, do take inspiration from real life and admittedly do branch off a bit while I try to maintain some sense of realism. Hence all the questions!
After all, I don't want people's willing suspension of belief to go rocketing into "Nope, not possible" territory.
But yes, you're both being excellent help! *fist pump* Thank you very much for your input, ladies--I can start organizing some blooming ideas and thoughts now on where I want to go with certain noble-beget offspring, whoohoo!
)Admittedly what I'm working with, fictionally speaking, doesn't follow a very rigid real-life structure; though some points, like how I'd like politics and nobility to work, do take inspiration from real life and admittedly do branch off a bit while I try to maintain some sense of realism. Hence all the questions!
After all, I don't want people's willing suspension of belief to go rocketing into "Nope, not possible" territory.
But yes, you're both being excellent help! *fist pump* Thank you very much for your input, ladies--I can start organizing some blooming ideas and thoughts now on where I want to go with certain noble-beget offspring, whoohoo!
Hey there!
There's a huge amount of variation between times and places, so I'll try and outline some options you have
Dragonfire has already posted a great link, I also found this one is way shorter, but mentions a little about other countries besides the UK. As for children of kings, queens etc., they usually get the courtesy title of 'prince' and 'princess', but the Prince of Wales isn't just that - Wales is a principality and so if it were an indipendent country, the Prince of Wales would be its ruler. Charles wasn't born Prince of Wales, the title was granted to him in 1959 and he had an investiture ceremony during which a crown was put on his head in 1968. Which is way better than the Duke and Count titles that his bothers and son have. But on top of that, Charles is also the Duke of Cornwall and the Duke of Rothesay in Scotland.
Re: bastards - that totally depends on the period and place. More recently the bastards had no rights, but some 500+ years ago and more prominently around 700+ years ago (I'm too lazy to look stuff up, so this is based on what I've read and remember and may be totally inaccurate) it was totally different - society wasn't as moralistic as we imagine. Sometimes the bastard could inherit (even the whole estate), especially if he had no brothers (just sisters) and/or if he gained allies, especially if the king was weak or if their territory was autonomous. Also, very high-born bastards were often given lesser titles than their legitimate siblings or clerical positions. High-ranking noblewomen could sometimes have bastards without much backlash, not just men - they could be given to someone else (much lower-ranking, but no too much) to bring up. So the treatment of bastards would largely depend on how moralistic and religious the society was, how important his or her parents thought the blood bond was and how powerful they were at the time.
For example, William the Conqueror was illegitimate. BTW, at his time, kidnapping a heiress, forcing her into marriage and moving over to rule her territory was totally legit and practiced quite often.
Another thing would be bastards who weren't acknowledged by the father. Not sure what rights they had - problably not many. Or none at all. But if the father acknowledged them as his, well, there were a lot of possibilities.
I'm pretty sure sons and daughters of emperors use (at least in English) the title prince(ss) but when determining the order of precedence for any particular event they'd be automatically counted as higher-ranking than a king's children or a prince's children, the title wasn't the only thing taken into account. That said, Russia and Austria-Hungary, both empires, used a different title than prince/princess for the children of the Emperor/Tsar, it just doesn't have an English equivalent.
Hope this helps!
There's a huge amount of variation between times and places, so I'll try and outline some options you have
Dragonfire has already posted a great link, I also found this one is way shorter, but mentions a little about other countries besides the UK. As for children of kings, queens etc., they usually get the courtesy title of 'prince' and 'princess', but the Prince of Wales isn't just that - Wales is a principality and so if it were an indipendent country, the Prince of Wales would be its ruler. Charles wasn't born Prince of Wales, the title was granted to him in 1959 and he had an investiture ceremony during which a crown was put on his head in 1968. Which is way better than the Duke and Count titles that his bothers and son have. But on top of that, Charles is also the Duke of Cornwall and the Duke of Rothesay in Scotland.
Re: bastards - that totally depends on the period and place. More recently the bastards had no rights, but some 500+ years ago and more prominently around 700+ years ago (I'm too lazy to look stuff up, so this is based on what I've read and remember and may be totally inaccurate) it was totally different - society wasn't as moralistic as we imagine. Sometimes the bastard could inherit (even the whole estate), especially if he had no brothers (just sisters) and/or if he gained allies, especially if the king was weak or if their territory was autonomous. Also, very high-born bastards were often given lesser titles than their legitimate siblings or clerical positions. High-ranking noblewomen could sometimes have bastards without much backlash, not just men - they could be given to someone else (much lower-ranking, but no too much) to bring up. So the treatment of bastards would largely depend on how moralistic and religious the society was, how important his or her parents thought the blood bond was and how powerful they were at the time.
For example, William the Conqueror was illegitimate. BTW, at his time, kidnapping a heiress, forcing her into marriage and moving over to rule her territory was totally legit and practiced quite often.
Another thing would be bastards who weren't acknowledged by the father. Not sure what rights they had - problably not many. Or none at all. But if the father acknowledged them as his, well, there were a lot of possibilities.
I'm pretty sure sons and daughters of emperors use (at least in English) the title prince(ss) but when determining the order of precedence for any particular event they'd be automatically counted as higher-ranking than a king's children or a prince's children, the title wasn't the only thing taken into account. That said, Russia and Austria-Hungary, both empires, used a different title than prince/princess for the children of the Emperor/Tsar, it just doesn't have an English equivalent.
Hope this helps!
Oh wow!
Okay so I've finally had a chance to sit down and start reading and looking at stuff, and you have all giving me some wonderful articles to take away from! I've got enough of a basis to start shaping the bastard-child situation I'm dabbling in, and I believe I'm getting a good enough handle on titles to figure out where to proceed on that front--along with a few other keywords I've thought to seek out for myself to answer a few tangent topics!
Once again, thank y'all so much for your knowledge sharing and pointers! Man this stuff is fascinating. I've mostly been winging it the last 10+ years, so it's good to finally get a proper basis to work from.
If I think of more questions, I'll keep asking them, but if anyone has more info & insight by all means share it! I bet I'm not the only one who would appreciate it! Now, TO OPENED TABS AND GOOOOOGLE~! *zoom!*
Okay so I've finally had a chance to sit down and start reading and looking at stuff, and you have all giving me some wonderful articles to take away from! I've got enough of a basis to start shaping the bastard-child situation I'm dabbling in, and I believe I'm getting a good enough handle on titles to figure out where to proceed on that front--along with a few other keywords I've thought to seek out for myself to answer a few tangent topics!
Once again, thank y'all so much for your knowledge sharing and pointers! Man this stuff is fascinating. I've mostly been winging it the last 10+ years, so it's good to finally get a proper basis to work from.
If I think of more questions, I'll keep asking them, but if anyone has more info & insight by all means share it! I bet I'm not the only one who would appreciate it!
Now, TO OPENED TABS AND GOOOOOGLE~! *zoom!*
Which time period are you preferring to focus on?
To be honest, I've never given it a hard thought. That's what happens when you create "generic fantasy medieval world probably influenced by Disney movies and a bit too much science fiction" at the age of 11 and let it grow and evolve for the next 11 years thereafter! Haha, ah...
To try to give you a serious answer...
Really, I don't know. The entire Middle Ages, I guess! Yes, I know, that's a huge time frame of...what is it, about 1000 years? But it's all I've really got.
Edit; Here's something that'll throw me for a loop: do kings retain their titles (much like modern-day presidents) even if they've been removed from the throne in some manner?
To try to give you a serious answer...
Really, I don't know. The entire Middle Ages, I guess! Yes, I know, that's a huge time frame of...what is it, about 1000 years? But it's all I've really got.
Edit; Here's something that'll throw me for a loop: do kings retain their titles (much like modern-day presidents) even if they've been removed from the throne in some manner?
^ Probably not? Most people who went through the trouble to dethrone a king - whether to place themselves on the throne or to do away with 'kings' as a thing entirely - had the good sense not to leave the poor sod alive. I can't think of many.. or really any examples where a reigning monarch was booted and allowed to retire quietly rather than, yknow, beheaded or murdered.
That is excepting situations where the king is divested of real political power but allowed to remain as a figurehead, ie the UK, Netherlands, etc, in which case 'yeah sure'.
That is excepting situations where the king is divested of real political power but allowed to remain as a figurehead, ie the UK, Netherlands, etc, in which case 'yeah sure'.
Ahh, I forgot about abdications. Usually the answer would have been 'no' in those circumstances as well. Even when the abdicating monarch wasn't murdered afterwards (a la Edward II) calling oneself 'king' would have implied that one still had a claim to the throne, which is not something the fellow sitting on it now (or insisting no one sit on it at all) would have wanted.
Makes perfect sense! Just figured I'd ask. Thank you! 
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