Forums » RP Discussion » Post Lengths and Story Cues

I'm just going to be blathering on a soapbox a bit here. Consider yourself forewarned.

Post length seems to be the usual measurement of skill in RP in most of the places I've been. It isn't a strict longer = better thing, as dauntingly over-sized posts are still typically frowned upon, but it's still a commonly accepted idea - and one that I believe to be damaging, particularly for those newer to this form of RP.

Posts of a certain length can generally be considered to be "complete." If it's got at least a couple paragraphs, that should mean there's a suitable amount of action and description to respond to. Fair enough, that's usually true. However, it doesn't mean that short posts - even down to one-liners - are necessarily bad or incomplete. It's certainly good to sit and try to think of more to add, and for some of us used to 2+ posts (and for higher numbers, it gets worse), having less can feel downright dirty.

Where it becomes a problem is when someone really believes that quality depends upon quantity. In some cases, it results in a lot of useless fluff that will do nothing to keep an RP active and engaging. Worse, there are good, imaginative players who feel they are sub-par because their posts are often shorter than the posts of others around them or shorter than others mark as their preference/requirement.

Post length is not what makes an RP good. There are only two things that a post really needs:

1. A clear scene. Yes, we want to know where you are and what it looks like, but it only needs to be described once unless it changes. Yes, it's good to know what your character looks like, and it's certainly a good idea to describe various actions and expressions, so long as it makes sense for your character to be doing those things to begin with. Yes, we like knowing at least a little of what's going on in your character's head. Sometimes, though, there's really just not much to say without derailing the current track (which also isn't necessarily bad, but good to discuss first) or taking control of someone else's character, because everything's been established and there's just not much to do at that moment. So build a clear scene, but don't stress if you can't think of more.
   
2. Cues for the other player(s). Cues are far more important to the longevity of an RP than post length. They provide a way for players to feed off one another. They can be little prompts for reactions or questions. They can be signs that it's a good time to to try something or bring in something new. Sometimes they're in the dialog, comments and questions that prompt some kind of response. Sometimes they're in actions. Sometimes they're in the narration itself - though here one has to be careful not to cross the line into using OOC knowledge IC. Narrative cues can only be acted upon if there's a valid reason or way to guide toward it, and even then it might be good to check in with the player first, in case it's something they really don't want to change anything your character does (not yet, at least). Basically, it just needs something to respond to.

So long as a post achieves those two things, it is (probably) a good, successful post that can lead to a rich, engaging game.

There's been a community discussion on the craft of writing for RP (found in the Help section by the way!), and the general consensus among members was that quality and quantity can go hand in hand, and that 'post size as needed' is a much more accepted method of writing here than super strict x paragraphs.

I personally disagree that those two things you listed are the only things a good RP needs. They can be incredibly beneficial to make something great, no doubt about that!

In my experience and opinion though, a good RP needs a suitable RP partner before anything else. Someone who has similar ideas of what's fun in a roleplay for you (which can range from really good grammar and spelling, to simply being interested in the same high school drama theme) is more likely to work with you to create immersing and ongoing roleplay that makes it entertaining.

There are so many diverse writing styles and types of roleplay that it becomes limiting to say 'You have to include this in order to make it good'. It's all subjective to someone's preferences. Many roleplayers on the public forums have tons and tons of fun with roleplays that make me raise an eyebrow and wonder what the heck is going on, but they're always engaging in a game that meets their needs. That's ultimately what matters - to have fun with someone else! And who better than someone who makes a good match for your likes and dislikes?

I turn down many players for roleplay based on the fact that they have a very different idea of what makes for a good story. I like purpose, I like drama, I like provoking and making my characters go down the less successful paths - I'm not that concerned with them setting a very clear scene or bothered by repeatedly pointing things out. I actually like the latter, when roleplays are slow I'm bound to forget specific details that help me picture the setting, so being told repeatedly helps me remember. I'll never work out with someone who takes joy in fulfilling a superhero role by saving the day without indulging in my dramatic needs, or curbing down the effortlessness of making everything right again. Even superb writing and creating opportunities for reactions will not make an RP like that good for me!

This is mostly based on my own experience. What's a good post is just really subjective. There are many people who prefer roleplaying with mainly dialogue and minimal description and interacting, and that's fine and equally valid as those who like writing 5+ paragraphs.

Oh, a good RP certainly has more than those things - I only meant a good post, and in a pretty general sense.

Mostly, I just felt the need to rant.

I feel RP and post can be used interchangeably all the same in my post though. There's no real rule on it just because everyone has their own ideas of what makes a good post.

I do understand the need to rant! I hope you feel better either way.

I agree with you Novalyyn. From what I've seen, RPs can quickly die out when people are struggling with how to reply, and these can keep RPs from slowing down and becoming stale. It is something we all have or will experience. Setting the scene helps to keep everyone on the same page and makes it more interesting to read. Cues, probably the most important one, has a place in every single RP. This, as you said and I just repeated, helps to keep the RP going. While cues are not always used they open new doors of possibility for the RP.

Here is a question for you , though. I completely agree post length is not an accurate way to see how well one RPs, but what is? How is one to actually know if they are any good in their RPs?

Ask the person/people you're playing with. *shrugs* It can be a direct "am I any good?" or a slightly less direct "have any tips for me?" I'd trust folks to be pretty honest here on RPR. Of course, if the person seems to reply pretty quick whenever they have the chance, it can probably be assumed they're enjoying it at least a little. Not always, I imagine, but I figure usually.

I... I love this post. I would like to hang this post on my wall. I do agree with Sanne about the importance of subjectivity and personal preference, but these two points are probably the first things I seek out in RP--especially decent narrative cues. I'm honestly golden as long as I have something to interact meaningfully with.

I like that you bring up the sort of stress conflating quality with quantity can lever onto a player. I find that, sometimes, to be truly incisive, one actually needs to use their words deftly and sparingly--but doing so often makes me break out in a perversely guilty sweat over whether a post is going to seem long enough to my co-players. I believe it's a false association that really does have the potential to damage RP, in some instances. As you say, there is a bit of a correlation between provision of clarity and narrative cues and somewhat longer posts, but hitching one's horse to the concept that length alone makes the post good is a dangerous proposition which can lead to a lot of unnecessary filler that has the potential, I think, to emotionally clutter a scene.

I'm on mobile so excuse any errors please.

To gamers' question, I think it's sort of dependent on who is involved and their opinions. For me, I feel a good role player has a decent grasp of using correct grammar, correct spelling, and helps me with plot rather than leaving it all up to me. Give and take is important I think. Keeps us both interested.

I like long posts because it feels more like I'm writing a story. It makes me feel like I can take my time and not worry about feeling like the story is being rushed.

That being said, I'm admittedly picky about who I foreplay with. X; I feel very snobby about how picky I am but I like to think I'm still friendly enough c:.

Kudos make me feel like a good role player, especially if it's from someone whose style of rp I admire and look up to. Compliments also help. So if someone I'm role playing with is great I tend to send them compliments. C:

I lost my train if thought lol.

Oh? Well I would hope so.

I feel I should expand a little on the thing about people feeling they're sub-par...

When starting out, that feeling can easily drive someone to simply giving up, believing that they probably won't ever be good enough. I've seen a number of people do just that, because they don't know how to expand on things yet, and they don't feel confident enough to take the time to learn how.

Myself, I was lucky to get a sort of slow introduction. I started out among short posters, so the fact that my own posts were rarely more than 2 or 3 sentences didn't matter. As I moved around, I was exposed to a greater variety - enough better people to develop, and enough short posters (and, yeah, some folks who really just sucked, though I watched some of them improve over time) that I didn't feel out of place. A lot of others don't get that easing in, though.

And this is why I put up with short posters, long posters, people who's spelling can improve, people who really just suck. Because we are all newbs once, and somebody had to take the time to "ease" us in, or at least stick around long enough to help. The one thing about RP is that its a learning experience- you learn about the other character, the player, see if they intrigue you, but also diction, writing styles, how to word things.
I talk to people all the time- I don't care if you sometimes say the word "as" too much, or you can't access and overuse your thesaurus- that's not the point: the whole point of an RP to me is Story; is it a good story? Is it fun? Does it take you to another place in time? That's how I feel what an RP is- its you doing a story in real time, with characters. You are the narrator, and we the other players simply are literary devices actively engaging you.
Post length and everything can come later to me- if you can improve yourself, your character, then its a success in my book.

And with this being said, yes in Furcadia I'm always open for people to seek me. I'm more than willing to be that person you throw 'sucky' posts at, so long as your willing to hear constructive criticism- and for the most part its not me getting onto "you need to use more commas" as it is "you need to use aggressive diction" [remember English- passive-aggressive section? Yeah- words that are present tense sound much better than constant past tense- granted it can be a bit difficult, but I will always try to say "X and Y are talking" instead of "X and Y talked", there's more to it but baby steps]

ANY WHO- I'm done.

You're done creating when there's nothing left to take away.

HOLY CRAP i did not mean that holy sdlkjfghdkljfsd

I MEANT ROLEPLAY

GOD DAMNED AUTOCORRECT

I SWEAR TO GOD LOL

I've never used post length to gauge quality, and not simply because of the potential for fluff; all writing is padded to a certain extent, and it's not always fluff. At times, the sinews connecting the narrative muscle are nuanced to convey a certain atmosphere, or they supply smaller details that, when seized upon, may lead to new avenues. Unless the information is completely superfluous or articulated poorly, I try not to judge filler too harshly. As Hooke said, a lot of roleplayers feel pressured to maintain a certain length or else they feel their posts are insufficient.

A writer will either be active or reactive when roleplaying, and that might have more to do with their comfort zone than their ability. It's important to know your own strengths and play to them; for instance, my characters tend to be more active naturally, whether the cues come in dialogue or action, and I have the most luck with people who don't mind their partner steering the narrative. Being able to adjust to fit other people is not a very common skill, and I don't expect anyone to tailor their style to fit mine. I'm more than happy to take that initiative. That being said, there's a difference between being reactive and being passive. If you're not comfortable taking the helm, then you have to be prepared to accept what your character is being thrust into, and to guide their reactions truthfully.

Nothing is worse than roleplaying with a character who is a monolith—unchangeable, unflappable, perpetually unimpressed and unperturbed, like a rotten piling driven into the riverbank, unaffected by the tide flowing around it.

In short, I'd say that for my personal tastes, quality always trumps quantity. Certain dreams enforce a minimum length requirement, but it's rarely demanding. Even if your posts are on the more concise end of the spectrum, maintaining a minimum is not an arduous task. The other side of the coin is that if someone posts a novella that does not pertain to my character and offers nothing to which I could react, it feels like the verbal equivalent of noise pollution. Sometimes it's written very well and offers valuable insight into their characters, which I certainly enjoy, but those posts are few and far between.

My only problem with 'paragraph roleplay' is that it is inherently cumbersome when it comes to producing dialogue. Outside of Jane Austen, people don't speak to one another in paragraphs at a time, and it can be tedious to produce an entire post of description just to serve as a vehicle for your character to ask one question.

The irony of a post like this being all about the evils of fluff is so thick as to be a thing that literally physically exists in three dimensional space

Unless this was satire, in which case good job

You, dear Rosby, are a wordsmith. Lordy do you write pretty.

That, aside... when I say fluff, I'm referring more to things that are entirely irrelevant. If you're in a battle, for example, then unless it somehow affects your combat ability (as by making you sick or something), I really don't care what you had for breakfast. Things like that, or endless descriptions of minor details that don't even have an impact on anything.

I'd also like to say that you're one of the few people I know of who claims a primarily active role. I developed as a reactive, and it tend to seem to me like most of those I come across are also primarily reactive. Most of the active players I've come across have sadly been terrible writers who usually have rather bland and/or stupidly overpowered characters. >.<

Really bro

Each of those paragraphs could be replaced with a sentence without losing any meaning

Sometimes it feels like this site is full of people who are convinced that Jerry Holkins knows what he's doing

Eh, I was just commenting on the fanciness. Useful or not, that level of fanciness tends to take work.

Also, I don't know who Jerry Holkins is. Really, I don't know who a lot of people are... XP

It really doesn't.

The_Ross, I'm sorry but could you please be a little nicer? Everything you said on this thread so far has been very rude and uncalled for Rosby's style of writing is his own style. Kaddiss wrote an equally long discussion post. It is a discussion, and therefore there might be a lot to say.


As for your main post, Novalyyn, I can totally see where your coming from, and the wonderful thing about PRR is that it's a place that accepts any little rants we might have (as long as they aren't rude or damaging to others of course!)
I personally agree with the two things you think are important, though like Sanne said I feel there are more. However, I just want to give my own side of things for consideration, since this is kind of a discussion thread to understand and see how others think/feel on the subject
For me personally, I need probably a minimum of four lines. Sometimes I'll post just a couple lines, but for the most part there's usually a generally of four for me. That's what works for me. When I get less than four lines, I have to sit there and think of how my character can react. "He smiled at her, nodded his head, and kept walking on their path." <-- this is an example of a post that I can't do anything with. I think this is lacking what you called a cue, but it's what I find a lot in small posts. Often, a small post I get will have perhaps one question in it, but that's only one question. What else can I do with that? I know there are some possibilities, but it wearies me when I have to really struggle to find something to happen because I'm getting brief, 1-3 line posts.
However, I totally understand where you're coming from, and I've done them myself a couple times, depending on my schedule or brain power. But I always strive to put more in my post, not to fluff it but so that people get a better understanding of what's going on with my character and such.