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Lol, don't apologize. Copper just meant to point all this out and educate. You can take it and learn, or not, but don't apologize. RP how you feel comfortable. I like RPing with you.

There is no need to apologize. I'm not here to single people out or drag them through the dirt-- otherwise I would've done that in my starting post with those actual RP examples I've run across.

Look, I didn't mean to come off as so abrasive. It wasn't my intent in the least. Not going to speculate on myself. But yeah, I guess I got carried away, and I'm sorry. I didn't mean to-- wasn't my intent in the least. I wasn't even "angry" when I started this topic.

Edit: I took a while to type this, and I see kuroi replied before that. Kind of makes my post useless! I can understand that if we approached the discussion wrong it may be frustrating to read my replies. I apologize if they didn't come across as I intended, and please do let me know if I could have done it better somehow. My PMs are always open and I'm not going to be angry if you have tips for me!

I'm still not certain what the problem is. Isn't a discussion sharing and explaining one's view on the matter? You're explaining why you post and reply, but your intentions don't differ from mine at all. I like knowing how people think about something, know their views and reasons behind doing things. It helps expand my perspective on the matter, and I was under the impression that by replying in the same manner people would do the same with my posts.

Yes! That's exactly what we want in a discussion. To see your view on the matter. But that also means we have the chance to reply to that as well.

Luulu's post pointed out a particular reason for using the word 'would'. But if we go by the rules of the dictionary, it would be a wrong way to use it. We tried to explain that as purely the fact, but please don't forget I also replied to her saying that it's fine to use 'would' that way if she wanted. She is not being patronized for it or in any other way being kicked down. I'm sorry you're seeing it this way.

As for Jetticus' post, it sounded to me like he was seeking confirmation on his usage of the word 'would'. Because the word 'would' technically doesn't contribute to the sentence in any shape or form (as did your example, I must say), I was wondering what about it made him inclined to use it. I'd genuinely like to know, perhaps it may not be necessary, but for all I know it helps define the sentence and situation better for him. As long as I don't have an answer to that, I can't tell for sure. In any case, I didn't mean it to make him feel stupid, nor you. I'm just genuinely curious how adding a - what seems to me an obsolete word - makes it work better for you guys. I'm not sure how that is kicking you guys down.

It hasn't been anyone's intention to make anyone else feel like an idiot. I'm sorry if I made you feel like that, I didn't mean to. I enjoy discussions and I think that by sharing my view in reply to, for example, your view, we can learn from each other. I'm not sure how else we can have a discussion on the topic... If there's another way you think I should have written my replies, be it content or phrasing, I'd like to know. I only know my intentions, but I can't know how you - and others - see them when you read my posts. The last thing I want to do is make people feel uncomfortable.

At risk of sounding mean or patronizing, I'd much rather hear from Luulu or Jetticus themselves that I or someone else upset them. Unless they have told you directly they feel wronged, it's counter-productive to speak for them when it's not certain they feel that way. We're not looking for conflict, and if our words did upset people this much, we'd like to hear from them so we can properly apologize and ammend our discussions in the future. The community comes first, if that means we have to change our act to make discussions more enjoyable to you, then we gladly will!

I have been guilty of pretty much everything Copper and I posted! Don't feel down about the way you write and don't apologize - I forbid it - because that's silly. Just like kuroi said, if you want to take tips from the topic, you can take them and use them, but we're not trying to tell people how to RP and write. That would be wrong of us to do. So don't feel bad, RP any way you like, it's all fine.

On that note, I know I have a... er... certain way of wording things, but seriously, I wasn't trying to shoot anyone down in my starting post or any post after that. Far as I saw, I was (oddly) expressing my opinions and counters....

... so I guess in retrospect I wasn't really being that abrasive? Then again, that's a matter of opinion too, innit it?

When people speak out of frustration, it's so darn easy to make it sound very different than you intend for it to! It's also really difficult to carry your intended tone in plain text.

I hope at this point it's clear no harm was meant. I'm speaking mostly as a non-native English speaker who has a thirst for knowledge and wants to know as much as possible about the language, and knows how easy it is to use words and phrases and such wrong without knowing it's wrong. I was embarrassed and wish someone had told me!

My point in such discussions is therefore always to educate and help. I'm sorry if I made anyone feel stupid or forced into changing their writing, I didn't mean for it.

(And I think it's time to get back on topic too. Again, I'm open for PMs if you want to talk to me about my posts here!)

Sanne I wanted to let you know that kuroi_neko was appropriately describing my feelings. I felt like if I messed up I would be looked down on, and at the same time when I attempted to rebutel I felt like my opinion didn't matter, but that's on me, that's not anyone else that can "make" me feel that way.

Either way even if this post got a little crazy, it was a good post overall, it inspired conversation and debate, which I am a fan of. Though my English is limited I do like to think that most people understand what a person is saying even if they miss several words or have way too many.

No one likes to be told, or to find out, that habits they have are incorrect, improper, or even someone's pet peeve. Writers especially dislike the idea that we might not have crystal perfect grammar, and the idea that we are not the most amazing writer(s) on the planet is a hard pill to swallow sometimes. Even so, I think posts like these are important. Sure they could sometimes come across as a little harsh, but it is hard to take candy coated criticism. I honestly never thought about the situation of "would" being something that would stand out, but a few years ago I also did not think the different between 'your' and 'you're' was a big deal either - now misusing the two words will drive me up a wall. I don't know if I'll stop using "would" the way I do, but it does make me think about it a little more. (Thank you by the way, for also pointing out that it is completely fine if I choose to continue writing this way) So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm really glad this post actually happened because I feel like it may have helped me grow as a writer if even a little bit.

Years ago, I RPed with a girl who abused 'would'. She was RPing a cat, and I was RPing a human. I remember a point in the RP where her character

Would jump up on [my character]'s shoulder, and then would bite at his ear.

Which left me thinking: "Well did she do that, or didn't she?" I mean, this is my character getting mauled. I would like to know if this thing happened to him or if it was the daydream of a deranged feline. If she was worried that I might object to my character getting bitten there's two possible routes:

Ask me! If you think I as a RPer would object, message me for permission before hand. "Look, your character has been bothering mine for ages now. Is it okay to bite him?" And there's a 99% chance I'd say yes. IC actions lead to IC consequences, after all.

Alternatively - do it anyway, knowing that IC actions lead to IC consequences. Perhaps the rest of the party doesn't feel too strongly about a party member who would attack another. Obviously, this option is not good if it involves permanent mutilation or death - those things are almost always consent only.

The point is, there's a million ways to use 'would' correctly. It is a perfectly reasonable word. In fact, sometimes its necessary grammatically. Here's a couple of times of 'would' being used when nobody in their right mind would complain.

Every morning for a week, he would wake up and check his fingertips to make sure they weren't turing black.

When he became king, he would clean up this part of town.

As a teenager, he would always go to the library after school. Now, he didn't have time for that.

In none of these instances, does the word 'would' create ambiguity. The player is never left thinking "How does this affect me? Is this actually happening?' It's not a toxic word that needs to be avoided at all costs.

I guess the tl;dr moral of this post is just do it. Furthermore, make sure other players understand and know that you have done it.

To Jetticus: I'm still sorry you feel that way, whether it's my fault or not. I want you to know that the RP we're both involved in has been great so far, and I loved reading Jett's interactions with Brie. Don't let a topic like this discourage you. Your opinion DOES matter!

To Luulu: I'm really glad you've found use in this topic, and I'm sure Copper feels the same! That's all I was hoping to convey with my posts, some awareness and knowledge with everything else left to the player as a choice.

To Claine: I think you explained it a little better than I did. I totally agree there's nothing wrong with just following up on the action. In my experience, roleplays that focused heavily on leaving endless choices rarely got anywhere, because everyone appeared hesitant to pull the move through. Roleplays where both players just SMACK BAM declare something happened without hesitation have always flowed nicely for me and progressed the story. Perhaps a lot of people are uncomfortable with it though, because it leaves potential for serious godmoding?

Thank you Sanne

If you're the kind of person wants to avoid godmoding, you're the kind of person who would have this concern no matter how you write. In the long run, it comes down to what kind of characters you play, and how you play them - not the kind of language you use.

If you're a respectful player, with well thought out characters, ambiguity never works in your favour. It just makes your writing confusing to others.

Well.. it seems I came along a little late.. *blames stupid timezones* But as I've spent the time I am SUPPOSED to be studying actually reading this thread instead, I feel compelled to add my two cents.

This is one of those rare topics where I can literally empathise with every person who has posted, as I have nodded my head and agreed with every statement made. I will not comment on what everyone else has already said as I have read and understood their opinions so I'll just add mine to the mix

I am terribly guilty of not finishing sentances when I type in what I call OOC mode (i.e. THIS). I do this alot ..... see the dots? .... *grins* For me, it is a habit I picked up along the way and it's not likely to end any time soon. It's part of the way I communicate online, and I use the dots to represent me pondering... or .. thinking.. or... pondering.. or ya know.. the whole trailing off in thought thang? For those of you who know me around here and have either engaged in OOC chitchat with me or have blessed me with the presence of your company IC , you will know this is just one of my "things" that people accept if they wanna hang with me. *shrugs* I use it in IC alot as well because I like to become my Character and therefore use it often in my character's speech patterns. Again, people that play with me know this is part of my style, but I do appologise to anyone who may find it a particularly annoying habit......... I know it can be annoying to not know if another player is finished but I guarentee I usually put some sort of symbol at the end of the sentance, action or speech pattern to indicate the post should end. Like just then: I used a fullstop... *grins and throws a few more dots in there for good measure* ........................... .. .

Oh! And I am also Australian, so I do spell some words differently from other more advanced civilisations (mainly swapping s for z and a for e I have noticed) and I also use strange words and phrases in place of some "common" ones.. for example: "petrol" instead of "Gas" (and other stuff I am sure Bones will supply evidence of if required further down the track)... so for that.. I apologise... and add a few more dots...

I also type VERY quickly and often my keyboard just can't keep up. I do try to catch typos if they fly past me.. but hey.. I aint gonna lose sleep if the occasional typo or ommitted word slips through. Despite the fact that I am a teacher, I am SHOCKING with punctuation only cause I'm lazy and don't want to slow down my typing. If I remember, and I am actually making an effort, I will remember my apostrophes, commas and full stops... but sometimes I just forget.. and then.. the dot's come in really handy!!

......

The reason I have shared that with you is because this discussion has caused me to also stop and look at my own writing practice on this public RP forum. I have been RPing in forum and chat format since 98 and I have seen alot of different writing styles along the way. I have been guilty of various "no no's" and OHMYGODICANTBELIEVESHEDIDTHAT!'s over the years, and I am sure I will be again in the near future.. I am human after all and as age increases, so too does the possibility of senility... alas.. I digress..

During my many years RPing I have been blessed with wonderful friends and the opportunity to play with extremely talented Roleplayers. Their talent and dedication to this craft has been awe inspiring to me and I felt incredibly privileged to be held in such high esteem as this group of players. Before coming to the RPR I was happy in our little forum where people knew me and I knew them. We had all grown together as writers and found ourselves seeking new players to share our stories with. By venturing out of my little comfort zone I have met incredibly amazing people at various degrees of writing and roleplaying ability. I have taken the viewpoint that I would like to play with all types of people, including people brand new to the art of online text based roleplaying. I enjoy being a mentor and a teacher to new players as I think it is an incredibly powerful and creative ability to have. I have good feedback from my past pupils and I love promoting a sense of creative collaboration with my group members in my various plots I have here on RPR. There has been a few times where I have had a quick word with a member of a group regarding the innapropriate use of a "would" or an "auto".. when playing with people new to the craft, little things like this are bound to happen. I prefer a quiet PM though, rather than mentioning it on a public forum thread. Some people are very shy about being "new" and will often shrink back and not want to join in if they feel they are being judged. That is why I LOVE this supportive and collaborative vibe that this thread has! People are encouraged to share their opinions and thusly are enabled to understand other points of view.

I think that sometimes people think that if they are good at writing, they must be good at roleplaying. I disagree. In MY personal opinion, to roleplay is to PLAY A ROLE by definition. When I WRITE my ROLEPLAY I PLAY the ROLE of my character and react as they would.
When I am getting ready for work in the morning I wouldn't brush my hair of "the purest gold" (cause um.. hello.. you can't actually BRUSH gold, ya know? Especially not the PUREST kind ) but I would brush my "long golden strands of hair".. cause now they are strands of hair that are golden in colour (the clever use of an adjective and not a metaphor That said, I gotta admit.. I DO love a good metaphor if used correctly as it can really paint a picture and be rather poetic. And while I occasionally may be guilty of using the word ORBS it's only cause I think EYES gets a bit meh sometimes.. however the most fluff I use is "Emerald green orbs" as its just nicer than saying "Green eyes", but that's MY personal preference. I absoloutely love the examples given of people describing their irridescent orbs of blah blah blah though cause that is exactly what I do.. I literally see BLAH BLAH BLAH and just scroll over that to get to the action in the post. THAT is what I want to see. I want to see who the character is, what they are doing, what they are reacting to and what I need to do in order to respond to that character IC. Of course we can be creative and descriptive when writing this (and indeed we should be as we ARE writers after all), however I do agree that certain people can waffle on for an entire paragraph describing their character's outfit when you can really describe it quite effectively in one sentance. That's just a little pet peeve of MINE that I thought I would share. *grins* Again.. it's a personal irk.. one I generally just shrug at and skim over the offending BLAH

To summarise:

One... I agree with every one of the first suggestions made, though I also agree that the original "tone" of this post had an affect entirely different than the one originally intended.

Two...This thread prompted me to analyse my own writing style from other's points of view and for that I am grateful. I've just written a three thousand word assignment on the importance of critical reflection for effective teaching pedagogy and I must say, it actually IS kinda important if you wanna improve in any medium you hope to excel at.

Three... I am Australian and I use alot of dots when I type.. like.. ALOT of dots...

And .. in closing.. THIS PLACE ROCKS I you all and I look forward to playing with each and every one of you some time soon.

~ Ebs xo
(Oh and ignore the dice roll.. I am just trying to resist the urge to gamble this weekend.. ) *EDIT* 91!!!??!?!?!? That's my highest.. damn.. now I REALLY wanna play poker this weekend.

I have to say, I'm pretty pleased with how this is going.

My last thoughts- I wasn't trying to personally attack anyone when I posted this topic yesterday morning, although I do realize I could've fixed my tone in my starting post; to be honest I was in one of those goofy "hey buddy c'mere let's have a talk" moods-- wasn't trying to be malicious at all. But I promise, I wasn't trying to drag anyone's writing styles through the dirt, and although I did use real examples I had run across, I didn't bring up anyone's names. They were just things that baffled and/or confused me, which I guess my wording made sound much worse than I had intended.

But for the most part y'all took what I had to say and turned it into a pretty decent discussion and sharing of point views and ideas on writing styles and how people use them, and it seems we all took something away from this. And that's wonderful. I'm glad to see that, really I am. So yeah, er, I think I'm done here-- y'all carry on if you want, of course, but everyone worded what I had to say far better than I, so my sharing further is kind of moot. xD But y'all have fun discussing, and I'll see y'all around.