As you know, people make characters which are Alchemists. As well as there is two types of Alchemy, Transmutative, and Potion Alchemy.
Transmutative delves into the kind of alchemy which allows you to morph metal, stone, soil, sometimes even flesh, into different shapes and forms and combine different ingredients to form something more powerful or valuable out of them. Sometimes even being able to create artificial life(but that eventually leads to runesmithing and the like.). It is also the art of equivalent exchange, as mentioned above. Take the materials for an item and morph them together to create something. Say, like you take steel ingots, a bit of silver, and leather. If you morph those together you would be able to essentially create a steel, silver edged sword with leather around the handle. Equivalent Exchange is mainly used as a utility though. (atleast from what I've seen)
Potion Alchemy delves into putting different ingredients into flasks, crucibles, bottles, vials, and other such things to make powerful liquids and serums which upon being drunk, poured, or splashed upon can have different effects, including the physically impossible.
So, what i'm wanting to know, is where in your opinion, Alchemy's (both types) limits and borders are. Basically, what is Alchemy, and everything before until it devolves into some kind of other magic. What is it's capabilities, limits, and other things in your opinion. What is Godmodding, and not Godmodding with Alchemy. Ect.
And besides, I think everyone on here deserves to know what Alchemy truly is.
Transmutative delves into the kind of alchemy which allows you to morph metal, stone, soil, sometimes even flesh, into different shapes and forms and combine different ingredients to form something more powerful or valuable out of them. Sometimes even being able to create artificial life(but that eventually leads to runesmithing and the like.). It is also the art of equivalent exchange, as mentioned above. Take the materials for an item and morph them together to create something. Say, like you take steel ingots, a bit of silver, and leather. If you morph those together you would be able to essentially create a steel, silver edged sword with leather around the handle. Equivalent Exchange is mainly used as a utility though. (atleast from what I've seen)
Potion Alchemy delves into putting different ingredients into flasks, crucibles, bottles, vials, and other such things to make powerful liquids and serums which upon being drunk, poured, or splashed upon can have different effects, including the physically impossible.
So, what i'm wanting to know, is where in your opinion, Alchemy's (both types) limits and borders are. Basically, what is Alchemy, and everything before until it devolves into some kind of other magic. What is it's capabilities, limits, and other things in your opinion. What is Godmodding, and not Godmodding with Alchemy. Ect.
And besides, I think everyone on here deserves to know what Alchemy truly is.
My character, Katane, falls into the later type. She makes healing salves and potions as well as mixtures that create wild effects. Then, she sells the less dangerous products of her craft to clients. As far as limits as to what they can do, I'd say as long as it doesn't fall under a god-mod situation or reach beyond a character's knowledge or skill anything can be possible within the bounds of any given universe.
Personally, I balance out the effectiveness of a potion on a few factors. First is the difficulty of getting and keeping ingredients, because Katane will not just be carrying ingredients for strong offensive or specific use potions. Second, most of real world drugs' effects don't last longer than a few hours without coating or special release mechanisms, and every drug has unintended effects as well that may stress other parts of the body over time and/or cause minor ailment such as sensitivity to sun, nausea, or just an itchy throat.
Considering this you can create situations that make use of potion alchemy to give an advantage while also having a great disadvantage of both taking preparation time as well as long and short term side-effects. A magic transformation potion of some sort would take rare ingredients, may take an hour to fully take effect, and maybe it's painful transforming both ways. A healing potion could speed up healing for a bad stab wound. However, it's not going to heal up in minutes, it's still going to hurt for days, and first aid is necessary to stop the bleeding.
That's my take on potion alchemy. Unfortunately, my view of the first type mentioned is that it is just another type of magic. That is a little harder to limit real world examples as a basis.
Personally, I balance out the effectiveness of a potion on a few factors. First is the difficulty of getting and keeping ingredients, because Katane will not just be carrying ingredients for strong offensive or specific use potions. Second, most of real world drugs' effects don't last longer than a few hours without coating or special release mechanisms, and every drug has unintended effects as well that may stress other parts of the body over time and/or cause minor ailment such as sensitivity to sun, nausea, or just an itchy throat.
Considering this you can create situations that make use of potion alchemy to give an advantage while also having a great disadvantage of both taking preparation time as well as long and short term side-effects. A magic transformation potion of some sort would take rare ingredients, may take an hour to fully take effect, and maybe it's painful transforming both ways. A healing potion could speed up healing for a bad stab wound. However, it's not going to heal up in minutes, it's still going to hurt for days, and first aid is necessary to stop the bleeding.
That's my take on potion alchemy. Unfortunately, my view of the first type mentioned is that it is just another type of magic. That is a little harder to limit real world examples as a basis.
According to real world lore and history, Alchemy was supposed to be the practice of transmuting base metals into gold and other such things.
Well, atleast in the real world.
BUT. If Transmutative alchemy was the "original" Alchemy... where did potion Alchemy come from?
Well, atleast in the real world.
BUT. If Transmutative alchemy was the "original" Alchemy... where did potion Alchemy come from?
Talking about the real world, alchemy as a whole covers all types. Transmutation and pseudo-chemistry(potions) are basically the same; they each take material(s) and attempt to alter them with magic or unknown forces. Some history books may suggest that turning lead into gold was the first goal and/or main basis of alchemy, but the pseudoscience evolved and changed until the magic and superstition began to fall away, allowing it to eventually become modern chemistry. This means none of the magic-based alchemy mattered in the first place, except to be a stepping stone for real scientific progress. Lead to gold being the first "experiment" or not means very little, so the label "first" or "purest" is unproven and probably not nearly worth the time and effort to prove, assuming it's possible. All of it ended up under the same label in the end because they all fit the definition despite any overlooked, unimportant differences.
Like magic and sorcery, portrayals of alchemy in books, games, and TV are given loads flair and rules within it's universe to follow, so it can barely be compared to the "real" version. Claiming which show/book/world's alchemy is better or more realistic or what form of alchemy is purer is arguing a moot point.
Like magic and sorcery, portrayals of alchemy in books, games, and TV are given loads flair and rules within it's universe to follow, so it can barely be compared to the "real" version. Claiming which show/book/world's alchemy is better or more realistic or what form of alchemy is purer is arguing a moot point.
Hmm... Indeed. I get your point.
Defining alchemy? Let me give it a shot!
Alchemy is some art, often of an occult or exclusive nature, that is defined by the function of turning one thing into something else, usually by the aid of some magical component or force that permits extraordinary results.
That's probably not the answer you were looking for. You're looking for the nitty gritty, the details, the ways to play or not play something like this. How does one define this concept any further without suddenly becoming exclusive to certain styles of roleplay, or rule-systems? Why, you can't!
No two settings are going to use the same rules, or the same real-world inspirations. Evoking the concept of equivalent exchange (which originates in Fullmetal Alchemist and has no real world origin of any sort except the law of conservation of mass!) might fly in one setting and elicit odd looks in another. The idea of bottling spells, which is prevalent in Pathfinder and other similar tabletop settings, might be absurd to a system that focuses more heavily on gathering reagents and painstakingly brewing potions with much more 'realistic' effects.
Personally speaking, I think that the whole lead-to-gold thing as an end in and of itself is quite boring, even though it was an often-cited real-world reason for people who chose to become alchemists. A lesser known fact is that, throughout history, alchemy and its processes have been tied, often in very elaborate allegories, to spirituality. While I find the practical applications of such beliefs to be quite dubious, it makes for excellent fantasy fodder. My own alchemist character is very serious about these symbols and connections, and believes earnestly in the power and nature of certain materials for the simple reason that he has seen them realized in his own alchemical pursuits.
In the interest of seeing this thread to its end, I will offer my observation that alchemy in any setting will generally fall into one or more three major categories:
As you can see, the key to all three of these, but especially the first and the last, is a strong connection to matter. That is THE defining distinction between the ephemeral, spellslinging magic and the substance-based alchemy--not what it can do, but how it is done. Alchemical effects are the result of not only years of study, but also ingredient acquisition, experimentation, testing, brewing, refining, bottling and, in some settings, maybe even patenting. They are also unique in that they can be sold, and can be directly involved in all sorts of projects, from construction to reanimation, in a very material, tangible way that flat magic just can't match in terms of intrigue, value and flexibility.
If you are really serious about integrating alchemy into your character or setting, I wholly advocate for setting aside some time to study the real thing. Alas, outside of the broad categories above, I'm afraid there isn't a lot more to really 'define' about the subject without delving into particular fantasy settings, besides, of course, the typical restrictions we apply to everything else in collaborative writing, especially where magic is concerned: 1) make sense, 2) don't godmode, 3) story before ego, 4) keep a system in place if you must, and 5) have fun!
Alchemy is some art, often of an occult or exclusive nature, that is defined by the function of turning one thing into something else, usually by the aid of some magical component or force that permits extraordinary results.
That's probably not the answer you were looking for. You're looking for the nitty gritty, the details, the ways to play or not play something like this. How does one define this concept any further without suddenly becoming exclusive to certain styles of roleplay, or rule-systems? Why, you can't!
No two settings are going to use the same rules, or the same real-world inspirations. Evoking the concept of equivalent exchange (which originates in Fullmetal Alchemist and has no real world origin of any sort except the law of conservation of mass!) might fly in one setting and elicit odd looks in another. The idea of bottling spells, which is prevalent in Pathfinder and other similar tabletop settings, might be absurd to a system that focuses more heavily on gathering reagents and painstakingly brewing potions with much more 'realistic' effects.
Personally speaking, I think that the whole lead-to-gold thing as an end in and of itself is quite boring, even though it was an often-cited real-world reason for people who chose to become alchemists. A lesser known fact is that, throughout history, alchemy and its processes have been tied, often in very elaborate allegories, to spirituality. While I find the practical applications of such beliefs to be quite dubious, it makes for excellent fantasy fodder. My own alchemist character is very serious about these symbols and connections, and believes earnestly in the power and nature of certain materials for the simple reason that he has seen them realized in his own alchemical pursuits.
In the interest of seeing this thread to its end, I will offer my observation that alchemy in any setting will generally fall into one or more three major categories:
I. Magical science. This form of alchemy evokes formulae, reagents, perfect angles, rings of blood, the alignment of the stars and so on in order to bring about unusual, unnatural or supernatural effects. There will often be a very heavy focus on matter and physicality that goes beyond the simple trope of a wizard with a wand; this kind of magic is able to call itself alchemy because its spells rely directly upon substances, actual constructs and real chemical activity in order to bring about its effect. Of course, this exact same variety of magic could just as easily be called, simply, 'magic', based on how the setting chooses its vocabulary. The magiscience used by the Asura in Guild Wars 2 is an example of this sort of alchemy, but also included here are the generic tropes of transformation and potions that, when carefully brewed with physical ingredients, are able to bring about a magical effect when activated by consumption or otherwise.
II. Scientific magic. This type of alchemy is like the above but in reverse! Instead of using physical matter to create unnatural effects, it uses magical energy (within some sort of logical bounds, of course) to use and abuse natural (or even unnatural) effects in creative ways, or to manipulate matter in otherwise impossible fashion. Fullmetal Alchemist is a good example of this, or Harry Potter's brand of transfiguration. I would usually call this straight up 'magic', but you can get away with the term alchemy if you execute it well and with much reference to the real-life art.
III. Realism and/or occultism. This type of alchemy strives to be true to its real counterpart, often following closely to the original motivations of historical alchemists (lead to gold, immortality, eternal youth, etc.), but because this is pretty boring in the context of fantasy, it tends to draw and heavily expand upon the occult and/or spiritual aspects of the art, with or without influence from magic as we think about it in the high fantasy context. This kind of alchemy will deal less with spell-flinging and more with demons, abberations from other dimensions, the price of knowledge and the cost of manipulating the universe in unnatural ways. In the less popular, less horror-aligned genre, it may deal with attaining peace, truth, or apotheosis. H.P. Lovecraft was a master of writing this sort of alchemy and it is my personal favorite.
II. Scientific magic. This type of alchemy is like the above but in reverse! Instead of using physical matter to create unnatural effects, it uses magical energy (within some sort of logical bounds, of course) to use and abuse natural (or even unnatural) effects in creative ways, or to manipulate matter in otherwise impossible fashion. Fullmetal Alchemist is a good example of this, or Harry Potter's brand of transfiguration. I would usually call this straight up 'magic', but you can get away with the term alchemy if you execute it well and with much reference to the real-life art.
III. Realism and/or occultism. This type of alchemy strives to be true to its real counterpart, often following closely to the original motivations of historical alchemists (lead to gold, immortality, eternal youth, etc.), but because this is pretty boring in the context of fantasy, it tends to draw and heavily expand upon the occult and/or spiritual aspects of the art, with or without influence from magic as we think about it in the high fantasy context. This kind of alchemy will deal less with spell-flinging and more with demons, abberations from other dimensions, the price of knowledge and the cost of manipulating the universe in unnatural ways. In the less popular, less horror-aligned genre, it may deal with attaining peace, truth, or apotheosis. H.P. Lovecraft was a master of writing this sort of alchemy and it is my personal favorite.
As you can see, the key to all three of these, but especially the first and the last, is a strong connection to matter. That is THE defining distinction between the ephemeral, spellslinging magic and the substance-based alchemy--not what it can do, but how it is done. Alchemical effects are the result of not only years of study, but also ingredient acquisition, experimentation, testing, brewing, refining, bottling and, in some settings, maybe even patenting. They are also unique in that they can be sold, and can be directly involved in all sorts of projects, from construction to reanimation, in a very material, tangible way that flat magic just can't match in terms of intrigue, value and flexibility.
If you are really serious about integrating alchemy into your character or setting, I wholly advocate for setting aside some time to study the real thing. Alas, outside of the broad categories above, I'm afraid there isn't a lot more to really 'define' about the subject without delving into particular fantasy settings, besides, of course, the typical restrictions we apply to everything else in collaborative writing, especially where magic is concerned: 1) make sense, 2) don't godmode, 3) story before ego, 4) keep a system in place if you must, and 5) have fun!
That is the best explanation for alchemy I have ever seen. You sir are a Wizard. *ba-dum,tss* Ehh... my puns are awful today.
Transmutation and 'potion making' come from the same real-world alchemy (chemistry's predecessor). Alchemy had two main pursuits- The philosopher's stone and the elixir of life. Some believed these to be one in the same, and the method of trying to obtain them was very similar- through alchemy ('potions'). There were many claims to to having achieved both of these, but none were ever verified. One such claim was for the elixir of life. The potion used for it was a hardy concoction of many, many substances (including fecal matter). While it didn't prove useful in bestowing immortality upon ones self, it actually was very good for the body (I really don't want to know how).
Alchemy itself was the combination of different 'elements' and mundane materials to create elixirs, salves, and the like. While most were mundane, there was always the pursuit of something more. Those would include the two I just spoke of.Totally didn't come back and add this paragraph after the fact. Nope!
Of course, around this time came other pursuits, like Galvanism. This is the time when many either followed or feared science, and many works were created from this. Marry Shelly's Frankinstein is one such work, giving life on paper to the fears many had about science getting out of hand.
There's a lot to this, and I could ramble on for a long time if my wrist were healed. It's some fantastic knowledge and I urge anyone who is interested to do a bit of research on it, you won't be disappointed! Hopefully this will help some future alchemist characters!
Cheers!
~Gamers
Alchemy itself was the combination of different 'elements' and mundane materials to create elixirs, salves, and the like. While most were mundane, there was always the pursuit of something more. Those would include the two I just spoke of.Totally didn't come back and add this paragraph after the fact. Nope!
Of course, around this time came other pursuits, like Galvanism. This is the time when many either followed or feared science, and many works were created from this. Marry Shelly's Frankinstein is one such work, giving life on paper to the fears many had about science getting out of hand.
There's a lot to this, and I could ramble on for a long time if my wrist were healed. It's some fantastic knowledge and I urge anyone who is interested to do a bit of research on it, you won't be disappointed! Hopefully this will help some future alchemist characters!
Cheers!
~Gamers
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