Forums » Art & Creativity » Art Theft & You

I used to track down artists and ask them if they gave permission to someone to use their visual references (sometimes of OCs, sometimes of commissions) on the RPR.

I stopped doing this after about 20-25 messages because almost 75% of all the artists I got in touch with explicitly told me "I don't care, peoppe can use my art however they like". I wish I was kidding, but there stopped being a point in doing that when that was all I got back. I don't think more than five people ever contacted Kim when I told them how to get the art taken down.

I see a lot of "it's the non-artists' fault" in this thread. I thought it would be nice to know artists themselves contribute to this problem just as much. I'm not the only person who's had these experiences and I think the amount of inaction from artists is just as big of a problem as the lack of approval seeking from non-artists.

[Temporarily retracted -- Ben]

[ Retracted, this is the point where I've been awake for too long and need to back off and get some things done before crashing. I don't have the focus to contend with my feelings of frustration over the continually repeating points and already answered questions. ]

I'm assuming Sanne means that it is 'just as much' the artists' fault for not reporting their art stolen, as it is for the thieves to steal in the first place. Which... I feel is not quite right to say! If these artists Sanne has contacted say what they say, it is because they are stolen from so often they do not have the time or energy to go after every single person who steals from them! The onus isn't on the artist, as the problem wouldn't exist if people didn't steal, so it is amazingly unfair to say the artist is just as much to blame! They're simply worn out from constantly being disrespected.

Errr If I were stolen from repeatedly, I'd actually be more zealous with wanting my things taken down. I'd have said no I didn't, or yes I did give permission dependant on what the truth was. If it was something I drew that wasn't meant to be worried about then I'd say so and let people use it freely but otherwise I'd go after them. I would never let someone just mess up my worklife, though I'm obsessive.

I agree with Mina. To be frank, this conversation really seems to have played itself out. No one seems to be learning anything and the same points are being made over and over again. Not to say that this topic shouldn't be spoken of, but it's long sense lost its point and most of the posters here seem to be venting at others rather than discussing anything. I don't think I've seen a single person change their mind on the matter.

Although, everyone seems far too hot blooded by now to heed that, but I wanted to share my sentiments. Personally, I think it's up to moderators to, well, moderate the issue. But this is a tricky situation for a lot of reasons. I'm sure as heck not sure how to fix it.

Oh, also, on my part. I'll clear something to a simple decree

Most artists here are working as what is called an Entrepreneur
They measure their work and price it accordingly. You're supposed to count and keep an eye on everything.
- How much money did the supplies cost
- How much did the material you used cost
- How much is the rent of the Place you work at
- How long did the piece take to be made/how much does your work cost per hour
- And then add extra that is considered, in a way, the actual price you are asking for your work. Students can't ask for much, professionals can't really either and you pretty much only make a decent living and can ask for a bit more if you are a popular, well known artist

In other words: Being an artist here is not a good idea
But what can a person like me do?
What do I do when I am not good for anything else? And honestly, I have things better than you guys do because I have loving parents that haven't thrown me out of the house yet. They don't force me to work my butt off to try and sell myself and my art on the street. Instead I get to sit here, try and work my way into some other school to work on another career path and keep art as a side job - a hobby so to say

I dunno, my thoughts escaped again
I'm just trying to say that there is a way to measure how much the art costs
It might not FEEL like it costs a certain ammount or you might not THINK that it costs a certain ammount, but the physical materials that you used do cost. The effort that you put on it needs to be taken into account. You are not a slave, you have worth. This is your job.
The same goes for digital art. Art programs, references, studying times, work... All sorts of things

I guess all I want is for people to understand that art can also be a job and you should not discredit it

Hey Miks,

The mod team has expressed that we welcome, and value, debate about this issue to help us inform our policy going forward.

I did not get the impression that their dismissive attitude was due to having their art stolen many times. I don't think anyone is in a position to make that claim without having been told this directly by the artist themselves. Speculation has no place in this. I have had debates with some of these people and there was a legit lack of concern for the art theft despite being reassured just one email with a link to their gallery submission would have the artwork removed promptly.

The fact that such a huge percentage of artists never took action is a problem by itself, whatever their reasoning is. Nobody should be breaking into our homes and steal our stuff, but it happens. And then we should go to the police. If people stop going to the police then it's just more incentive to steal because "nothing happens".

I'm not condoning art theft, but I don't condone inaction either. It works both ways. We will never be capable of erasing the incentive to steal art entirely, and artists have their own role to play in reducing incentive as much as possible. That's just how it is in my opinion.

Some artists and some models choose to release their content for public use under various conditions. I don't think that it's fair to say some people not minding contributes to the problem in a serious way. The onus is still on the person wishing to use the art to check.

I would more compare it to deciding to set up a community garden, and being happy with people coming along and taking vegetables, as opposed to having people stomp all over your roses.

Okay. I really did not want to put my two cents in here as well; when it comes to my own works, I can get a little emotional and/or irrational. I admit that wholeheartedly. However, I see some people saying that it's perfectly fine to use faceclaims or "borrowed works" as long as it doesn't hurt anyone and credit is given. So here's my attempt at trying to give a coherent viewpoint.

Here's the thing: like some people have said, this is a JOB for us. We can't afford theft because it rips dollars from our pockets. However, to people like me, my artwork and the characters that I draw are like my children. I put too much time, thought, and effort into each piece. Seeing other people use my work without my permission is... It's like ripping my child apart, reforming it, then posting it over and over under different names and guises. It does hurt us, not only because it takes money from us; in the case of some characters, it's like ripping our loved ones from our hands and giving them new lives we never wanted for them. I can't speak for anyone else, of course, but that's how I feel.

I'm sure people who commission other artists for art of their own characters might feel the same way. They didn't pay money just to have others use it without asking them or the artist. It's for their own personal use. Besides, isn't there a possibility that people taking art is why some artists raise the prices on art commissions nowadays? It could be to make up for all the money they've lost by other people using their or their commissioner's paid for works without permission. It's a mere assumption, but one to think about.

The same applies to photography. Photography is art as well; time, effort, and money is placed into these photos. That one well-taken photo being used for a faceclaim? Was shot in a film studio or outdoors using a camera worth almost as much as a good computer, if sometimes more than that. Photographers need that money to pay for the upkeep of such equipment to continue shooting those kinds of pictures. They also do it for enjoyment as well as pay. To use face claims also rips the livelihood from photographers too. And like Tate said, if someone used my face as a RP character, I would not feel good about that at all.

So I guess what I'm saying here is: some people, including artists, may think it's fine as long as they give credit, but I don't think it's fine at all. Sometimes, people do not know the impact of art theft or faceclaiming until it's happened to them firsthand.

That, and like Kim and Ben have said throughout this conversation, it's still not legal; copyrights are placed on works as soon as they are created. I know some role players or writers might not have the money to buy fancy arts, but... That's not really the point here, though I do feel the struggle. It's not a matter of personal reasons of why it's used, it's a matter of legality and how this affects RPR.

I am in no means shaming anyone who uses borrowed works or face claims, as everyone has their own reasoning for such things no matter what. (I myself was guilty of borrowing a fanart for my icon until I changed it to a piece of my own creation.) But I think it's better to use such things as mere references like Tailbone has done. I don't think there's anything wrong with using it in that way.

Ah, one more thing: this is just an opinion from my viewpoint. If it sounds like I'm attacking anyone, I really am not. (My social skills suck, so I'm really just stating how I feel.) I just want to feel like it's still worth it to continue to do art without my works getting stolen, and I'm sure plenty of others feel the same way.

(Edit: I'll admit: yes, this topic is getting too heated. Even I'm a little warm, and need to drink some water to cool my face down. However I still think this is a subject to be talked about. It's not only important to artists, but to roleplayers in general as well.)

Then it seems like a very good topic to talk about, for the mods.

I understand wanting to have community input, but this thread has been veering very close to mudslinging since the first page. I really doubt one of the angles that needs to be heard is "needless drama".

We are quite capable of deciding when a community discussion has run its course ourselves

We have been working very hard to steer this topic in the right direction, to get around people's kneejerk reactions and gain an understanding of how the community feels on each side of the issue. We may host another discussion, after everyone has cooled down, but I, and other players, have been noticing some very useful and interesting input from members here. For the most part, apart from a few slips, things have been heated but civil. If you're not interested in the topic, you certainly are not required to read it.

I think one of the biggest problems regarding art theft is accidental art theft. I've only skimmed through some of the responses, but they all seem to be from the artists' side, so I'm speaking from the audience side. Before RPR, I had no idea that using art you find around on the web for your character was bad or illegal. It's not like there was a copyright 101 class in highschool or a 'you must read this before you make a character' list anywhere. When I did find out, I took action right away. Now I use websites like Dolldivine, or use adoptables I bought or art I commission.
I feel like there is a distinct lack of instructions from a majority of websites, even somewhat here on RPR. Obviously we have many people well aware of the problem, and as Kim has posted there is a copyright section on the site. However, I myself have seen characters with obvious anime pictures or pictures that were obviously taken off of Google.
I feel an important question to discuss in this topic is as follows;
If you see someone who has art on their website that 97% probably wasn't made for them, how do you bring it up politely? I have my own suggestions to this question, but I want to hear what others might think of.
So much of the 'art theft' I see is just from ignorance (not in the arrogant sense, but in the innocent 'I just didn't know' sense). It would be great if websites would have clear, in-sight instructions on 'this is art theft, here's what to do to avoid accidentally being a thief'.

This. You put it in better terms than I could've done. That's what I've also noticed. Of course, there are those few who legitimately don't care and do what they wish, but the majority is just a small lack of knowledge, I feel.

I've kept an eye on this topic, reluctant to weigh in, but I really do agree with Ben on this point.

While my two cents is rather limited I will say that I feel this thread and any other threads the mods decide to pose our way are very vital in checking the pulse so to speak on how the community feels. I for one applaud the mods for allowing this to be a conversation, albeit it a heated one, rather than a declaration on their part of black and white standards stating what Is and what Is Not before consulting the community even in a minor way. It's definitely commendable and I am impressed that, based on what I've seen (there's no telling what sort of things were removed), things have remained mostly above board! We are all people and I hope it is no one's intent to wound another.

Which brings me to my only point really, and it might have been said. I would not classify myself as a true "artist". I will occasionally do art of my characters and do sometimes try my hand at drawing other people's characters too. I think intent is very important when deciding the dividing line between malicious art theft and merely ignorant use. Which is why I feel this thread is so important: to educate someone who might not know better. All the art on my char's pages has either been commissioned or gifted to me. For me personally I feel that 'borrowing' art so to speak and giving credit to the artist definitely falls into a gray area when the artist isn't consulted to see what they feel is fair use of their product. While I absolutely understand the intent, for most people it is not malicious in nature but simply an easy way to paint a picture of their own character, but simply giving credit without looking into whether or not it can be fairly displayed feels a little like turning a blind eye. By no means do I mean that as a broad, sweeping statement, some might not be aware that that is legally wrong.

And it is a problem, I've seen it all over this site and while I don't feel there is currently a better solution for the mods other than to address it when a claim is made I do feel that it should be something we all consider going forward when it comes to how we handle ourselves here on RPR.

With that I do want to say that I do not wish to upset anyone with my words, that was absolutely not my intent, so please be aware of that. Just wanted to weigh in with what amounts to like... 'half cents' at best.

EDIT: Spellcheck.

And I've never personally considered the use of celebrity pictures as art theft but I absolutely see how they would be. I plan to look into that on my own characters going forward though most I think might come from magazines and photo shoots where the use of such pictures is hopefully posted. Using a stranger's face, non-famous however, is pretty bizarre to me. I suppose I understand the attraction, someone might have features you like for your character, but it is still a picture of someone not in the limelight and thus might take issue with their likeness being used more than a celeb would for instance.

I really like this post. Very informative, and a very good position from the 'other side' of the issue. It's true! because it involves a lot of technicality, it can be a difficult issue to understand. It can also be very difficult to develop a clear policy that doesn't feel like outright profile policing, but we've been feeling that a discussion and clarified mod stance is going to be needed. I definitely agree that a majority of art theft happens mistakenly, rather than maliciously.

Bringing the issue up politely is difficult as well. Some people, like Sanne, choose to contact the artists directly, and from there let those artists decide whether or not to contact the site administration. But educating people directly about it could easily be met with defensiveness and frustration.

I honestly think CG's point has been addressed via my own post, but, a very simple lesson for assessing whether or not you should use an image is:

Assume you can't use it until proven otherwise. Proving you can use it is your responsibility. Ways have already been discussed - asking for permission, seeking images that are marked for free use, etc.

Instead of what generally seems to be the case: 'Assume you can until proven otherwise'

I really appreciate replies like this. It gives me a lot of confidence that this discussion is in fact worth having. Taking the time to go through your profiles to double check is the kind of due diligence that I think every artist here will appreciate, and we do too, because it saves us trouble!

I think that what CG is getting at is that maybe we need some better in-site tools to help educate people about the specifics. I don't have any control over that, but it's something that might be interesting to talk about.

I really hope that's everyone's take away honestly! To re-evaluate their thoughts and actions even if they don't agree with something. The law in my opinion is the law, even if it is a rarely punished on in communities such as this (that I'm aware of anyway).

I assume mentioning someone's likeness/face claim still totally falls into the a-okay zone. I think one of my chars has that rather than a picture but I plan to double check. The biggest use of face claim happens to be my main.