Forums » Art & Creativity » Art Theft & You

I'm super proud to see people talking about this and being honest and I'd just like to say you've all made some interesting points and the insight has been invaluable (it certainly got me thinking ❤); the topic's not intended as a community clash battle, but an exploration of opinions and different view points. I think I speak for a few people here when I say please don't target each other.

What people put isn't a personal attack at you no matter what you think, but merely an expression of how they feel towards the subject and the diversity of opinion is something that proves valuable to the mods, even if it's not something you agree with, it's representative of a percentage of the community and a large reason I play the devil's advocate and try to see things from both sides-- to get people talking and thinking and responding.

The awareness is valuable and will stop people getting into trouble for something they're unaware of, so I dig it sm. Definitely something I know myself and others will keep in consideration in the future. Cheers.

Yes, that's it exactly For anyone just using the internet, you think 'oh cool a picture I'll use it'. You don't think about the artist that made it, if it was commissioned, or anything else like that unless you've had experience with artists and commissions and whatnot (as buyer or seller or just a viewer).

I got a lot of deleting then. -_- great golly, I an a terrible artist...but I guess I gotta to what I gotta to....

Dolldivine.com has stuff you can use to make references of your character. And she's affiliated with Azaleasdolls too. There are various 'dollmakers' that a lot of people use to make characters, and it's totally free and acceptable legally. Just put in the image decsription about where it's from so people don't assume you did the art. As long as you don't try to claim you did the art, you can use the dollmakers for characters!

Yea, I suppose I should just to that then, I hate to do anything wrong. I honestly didn't know. I wouldn't want to jeapordise the only peace I have xp

Check out the resources posted in the OP! Tons of great resources out there.

Also, don't be too scared. Legal ramifications are, to be honest, few and far between for people who don't use stuff for profit. But it's still nice to respect people's art

I'll go ahead and be the devil's advocate here, since I play a demoness...

I've seen a lot of "RPR is liable!" in this topic, and that's nonsense. Assuming RP Repository is located in the United States, it's covered under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. The website must comply with DMCA notices for infringement and terminate the accounts of those who are serial infringers under said act, and that's all Kim is truly required to do by law. She's not the "copyright police."

The US copyright system is garbage (and patents aren't far off) in reality, with grey areas you can drive a truck through. This is where the real golden rule comes in: the people with the gold make the rules, and the copyright system isn't really there to protect the little people. If you don't have the dough to wield the legal system like a weapon, you shouldn't bother thinking you will beat people over the head with copyright law. At best, a humble artist can hand Kim that DMCA claim letter -- something you must do for every instance of infringement -- and get your artwork taken down from someone's profile.

Is it particularly worth it to do so? That's up to you to decide. There have been a lot of alleged "losses" due to piracy (here's lookin' at you, motion picture and record companies!), with very little of it ever being proven. Using the system to force someone into a situation where they must pay someone for art doesn't necessarily mean you'll be making money. That's what comes of being an artist (which is why smart artists like Trent Reznor have taken to using pirate channels for exposure instead).

Uploading one's work on a public forum like Deviant Art and expecting it to never be used elsewhere is always going to be unrealistic. Online "theft" will never be like real life theft (where material goods are physically stolen), no matter how hard people try to make it that way. So it's prudent to learn to work with people over non-commercial use, which is a big part of "fair use" as it is. Have them give you credit and/or link to you in order to drive your "business" -- selling your work -- instead. Artists seem to be thinking they have no need for publicity, when I can't tell you how many times my interest in a piece has me tracking someone or something down. "Word of mouth" only goes so far.

And if you think I'm blowing how shoddy the system is out of proportion, I note "fair use" hasn't helped various well-known YouTube channels avoid being slammed by companies with money one bit.

As one copyright website I found put it, "one court's fair use is another's infringement." Yet another stated, "relying on the doctrine of fair use to avoid seeking permission to copy a work is risky. Despite what you may have heard, there are no set rules about what kind of use is fair and what is infringing."

When there's no clear-cut fair use protection, you'll have to forgive me if I think the system's a joke.

I've read all six pages of this seeing everyone's points of view what have brought up concerns, questions, and even thoughts of my own..

First Thought.. Art: If we are really going to be going into copyright stuff.. Then here's a thought.. Even if you buy art from an artist wouldnt that art be copyrighted to the artist while the concept/your character would belong to you?

Second Thought.. Face claims: I personally know a good bit of people who use faceclaims to portray their characters until the can afford to buy pieces of art. If you give credit that you dont own the piece and give it to the respectable person then they shouldnt have a problem using it.. Like in school. I promise you when you had a project lets say about a lion.. or a tiger.. You went to the computer and printed off a picture yea? Even if it was about space.. Needless to say.. If people really are going to have a problem with this and say that it is art theft and that people who use FC's shouldnt use them then this site should post a rule about it.

Nicolette:

I agree with basically everything you just posted. We definitely want to attempt to interpret the fair use system in a way that is fair to artists. But, there are certain case law examples of fair use and copyright law in action that do give us some precedent to draw from.

kyjo:

When you purchase a piece of art from an artist you gain the rights to use it. It's like a contract that gives you the power to use and display what you purchased.

This has been addressed multiple times in this thread. Giving people "credit" does not make using their images any more legal. If you don't have permission - it's infringement. EDIT: The site already does have a rule about it. As face claims are copyright infringement, they are covered under the policy that says: don't use other people's intellectual property without permission.

And the fact that school projects are covered under fair use as educational has also already been mentioned.

Apologies for the double post, but I do want to address this as well. You are technically correct. But that doesn't stop someone from ATTEMPTING to sue, and causing a whole load of hassle and expense before the suit gets thrown out for being illegitimate. Bigger companies do often use suits, even invalid ones, as intimidation tactics. It goes with your other points about the copyright system being pretty borked in general. Your average freelance artist doesn't have the capacity to do this. But celebrity photos are most often owned by the large media companies who the photographers work for, not the celebrities themselves. And those sorts of companies can be pretty litigious.

I just have a lot of feelings, okay?

I would like to echo this as I used to steal art out of ignorance and Sanne was the one who enlightened me as to what I was doing. The second I found out, I removed all stolen artwork from my profiles and have been sticking to art I actually own.

If you play on virtual sites, you might be able to trade virtual currency for art commissions. That's how I have obtained most of the art that my characters have.

I've been an advocate of face claims on this thread beforehand; I believe they can be used in a positive way, but not a legal one. I've used them myself in the past, so to write from this perspective is interesting.

Interesting input, Mina. I think it's swell you've had previous experience stock model and can share your personal experiences, it's an intriguing and much needed insight to the discussion.

In reference to 'crying girls', I think that whilst it's not a collective opinion per se, it really shouldn't have to be -- that's down to the individual, illegality aside this leads back onto discussions about banned faceclaims lists on tumblr, etc. which ultimately boils down to a sense of respect and consideration for the person whose photos you are using.

The lady in the video is important as an example in terms of respect and morals, she's upset because someone has used her in a scenario that engages in taboo themes -- explicitly-- I can't imagine a more reasonable thing to be upset over, that's a horrifying thing to stumble upon. Someone, somewhere is fantasizing violence towards that woman, writing it, making it very publicly known on an account full of her stolen pictures.

I can only imagine how that must feel.

I think to reduce people to 'crying girls on the internet' over these situations robs them of their humanity and rights to voice things that make them uncomfortable, particularly things that are, as mentioned before, illegal (both the nature of the violence and the theft of copy righted images); it's not self-indulgent to take up space and share something that makes them highly upset.

Stock models willingly put themselves out there.

This lady didn't. Many others didn't.

Exposure to these incidents are very important and have to be acknowledged; without them we'd have no boundaries when it comes to using face claims, and I think boundaries and consideration are extremely necessary.

Celebrity or not, do you think any person likes the idea of being used on a RP forum in morally compromising situations? I doubt it; we have no way of knowing the person's own personal experiences that may hurt them, and the fact many celebrities, for instance, advocate support for sexual abuse victims, etc. so you can see why this plays a large part in this discussion.

(I understand the vast amount of characters do not partake in these scenarios.)

I think it's reasonable that people indulge ideas they spend hours creating in art work -- I always support my friends and local community by investing in art work; in return I get beautiful pieces I can cherish forever. Personally, I like the memories associated with them, I like to capture written moments in artwork. I know this is a shared experience - and one that supports artists who undercut their prices and depend on commissions for income. I think if people (like me, big bucks over here) want to spend money on their characters that's their prerogative, that's what makes them happy and they're not doing anything illegal and using other people's work. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy art.

They may not be the best writers by some opinion, but they're committed to their creations like everyone else and I think that's wonderful. That's them creating their own thing and being super happy with it. Like everyone else.

I don't think the intent here is to squash anyone's imagination or forefront a personal attack, but to foster imagination in a way that is reasonable and respectful. This is in our own interests as a player, so that neither we nor the site get a lawsuit/copyright cease and desist.

Again, I've advocated for face claims too on this thread and I don't think it's unreasonable to discuss a matter over a point of law at all. Especially as the use seems to be in violation of the site's TOS to begin with ( concerning copyrighted images ).

Moving forward, I think I'd like to see some discussion as to how face claims / references could be implemented without incurring a point of law, that people don't have to reconstruct their characters completely. Artistic references are a brilliant idea. And I also like what Kim previously suggested about linking to references without uploading them to RPR. I've used that method before. It works.

e: some wording edits

This thread is reaaaaally interesting, especially since what I feel towards the topic is torn between both sides.

I'm going to speak out both arguments and my own feelings at the end.

Firstly, There are many terrific artists out there who are so talented at drawing that it's awe inspiring. I look at them and feel like if I had continued drawing passionately I would be great myself,unfortunately that's not the case. I can see why, as an artist @Tate you feel as if people stealing art would break your heart. They have worked so hard on each individual stroke to give the drawing life and for someone off the internet to steal that hard work and use it without referencing the artist is wrong and painful. I myself, was and still am guilty for this. When I came to RPR I was a total noob with no roleplay experience what-so-ever. I had no idea how to start roleplaying so when it came to making a character I assumed snagging something off the interwebs was fairplay since that's what I saw from looking around.

For many people who're not great at art, using another person's art is the only choice if they're short on money but since google-images is cheese to use it filters down your search and finds what you're looking for and, since most of us are too lazy to find the artists we just copy and paste.

Just write a disclaimer in your profile picture saying The images of my characters are not done by yours truly, someone else with awesome skeelz did it!

Secondly,
Using someone else's face who isn't a model of some sort or isn't allowing to their photos being taken for others to use is wrong, I agree to that however, I do not know if one is giving their permission for their pictures to be used by the intertrolls. I have recently gotten into having modelsbe my character's profile pictures because:
A) I want my character to be handsome to my own standard of male beauty
B)I role play to live in a life of adventure, romance and action and imagine my characters as they are in the profile pics.

All in all, @Tate I think that most of your points are valid and feeling the way you do is completely justified but it isn't enough to make people think that what they're doing is wrong. The reason being if I want my character to look like a certain someone then that's who I'm going to base it on. If I want to use an image for an anime guy from the interlands then I'm going to use the googles to find it and use it.

The reason why people are on the internet is to escape and see things that amaze or amuse us, to teach or question our beliefs. No one goes on the internet to care about others they don't know and even if told otherwise I would probably challenge it and others might think so too.

If you want to use a picture than you most likely will.

There's my 2 cents, again, very interesting topic.

Hello again folks,


I'm sorry of this message offends anyone, it's not my intention.

Can we all just please discuss this without using a set of words set on by the stress of the matter? I know it wasn't intended, but reading many of these messages leaves me feeling as of it's more of an argument than a discussion. While a lot of you are discussing, when you post after another and repeat what has been said, agreeing or not, I feel like it's silly.


This discussion is serious, of this really is that big of a deal, which I do think it is, we all need to look at it from another side of the story. A lot of this is "artists" vs "Non-artist, but it shouldn't be. This is community vs legal uses of art. Its not meant to attack anyone, the creator of the thread had many many many good pointa, and I think a lot of is are feeling attacked like they are offended by the art we chose.

However, this is a REAL legal issue, this can get many users deleted depending on the sevierety or not. It could get Kim in trouble, it can get RPR more attention, but not in the good way. Its illegal to take images that are copywrited, period.

No, this isn't about hurting an artist or photographers feelings. This isn't even about the faceclaims. The point of the matter is, you shouldn't just nab art and out it on your profipes, just because it looks pretty. Dog in deep into the art, find the creator and the creatoes words, if none, make contact with said artist. If they say no, respectively drop the art.


We are a community, a family, come together to be apart of the amazing phenomena of role playing and art.


Of you yourself cannot draw, find a dolldivine that state's you can use their game to help you create the looks of your character, sometimes it's even more acurate than finding an image already made up.


Those of you who can draw, draw and show us how amazing you really can be! I for one love stalking profiles, so please! Show us what amazing things you can do.


I ju91st want to play, have dun, and chat. Lets do it right, not because we might feel attacked.

[Redacted by request of user]

I thought your view was really interesting. I do feel for people who aren't aware, it's such a common and harmless thing and there's never any issues until a thread like this pops up, so you don't think about it.

I'm wondering the same: sourcing the information from RPR's homepage, there's a current total of 13298 members on this site. Each player has 10 free character slots, so if we assume every player has ten characters, that's 132980 characters.

This is theory, I can't say for sure -- but that's a staggering amount of pages to keep track of, I imagine it's near impossible to monitor copyright images.

Estimating from here on out, if I had to hazard a guess from a quick glance at browse characters, I think FC usage alone makes up for maybe for a fourth of every 100 hundred characters. If we go by this data, it would mean approx 33,245 characters are using people's photos, but this is all guess work and theory based off one number, not all accounts are active or even have characters after all. Plus, it doesn't take into account how they are using the photos, they may be linking to the person's instagram.

I don't think face claims and art usage will ever fully peter out as an point of contention, but if this thread can make people aware of the potential consequence, the numbers will shrink and that's a difference; that's less people under the threat of having their characters deleted/removed because of infringement.

Promoting responsible usage, encouraging people to ask permission (e.g, since this thread: I asked an artist on DA if I could use their images for facial references-- they said I could use any I liked, in return I've linked through to their deviantart on the relevant rprs and I hope they'll get more fans and exposure.)

I've seen sources like facemorph used before-- it's convenient and blends together real people (celebs) to make a new one, so you get the features you like. ( Does anyone know if using images from sites like that are allowed? )

Cheesy as heck, but check out this screenshot of my oc in IMVU -- it's also a good place to make references I think??? It's evolved that much over the years that the textures are bordering on super realistic. You don't have to pay for the clothes, you can use the hi-res screen shot command in game at the store to get a snap of your creation.

(Shameless plug: if anyone really loves realism and has a bit of cash spare -- you should check aitsena, ghostiel (baaabe ❤) and moltenchier on deviantart, not only are they stunning members of the community but they have super reasonable prices and a super realistic style. They got me a committed return-customer for a reason. ❤❤❤)

I was going to leave it at just my initial comment, but I feel the need to address a couple things briefly.

This, actually, is not suitable. I understand you probably meant this as a 'if you can't find out who did it' kind of thing, but if that's the case, then you shouldn't be using it. Phantom hit the nail right on the head:

I think Phantom, as well as Fiebs, started addressing the 'what do we do now' question Rubix posed. It's not a full answer, not at all, but it's a start. So, what DO we do now?
My contribution to the answer is this:
First of all; if you don't have permission, don't use it. If you can't find the artist who did it, then find another picture to use instead. Just saying 'this art isn't mine, someone else did it' isn't really fixing the problem.
Next, I think, as said before, educating the populace is important. If websites (even RPR) could make some sort of news post or something about the use of images for characters and such, I'm sure a lot of people would stop and go 'oh no, I never knew I shouldn't do that! I better go fix it!'. As far as RPR, maybe when someone inserts a gallery widget into their character profile, something could come up saying 'is this image yours? Make sure you're using legal images' with a link in that sentence to a post on how to know if what you want to upload is okay for you to use or not. I think that could be SUPER helpful. (Also that's just a vague idea, obviously another tweaked version might work better).
I think educating people is most important. Being willing to step forward and say 'hey, I notice you're using a picture of X from X-Anime for your character. That's actually kind of illegal, but if you go to this-and-this website or this-and-this artist I'm sure you could find a better reference for your character that's okay to be used!'

I think Rubix made a really important point. We've already discussed the troubles and the 'wrongness' of art theft. I think the next step in this discussion should be what we are going to do about it all. What will I as an individual on RPR (and other websites) do about accidental (or intentional) art-theft when I see it happening? That is an important question to ask.

I just want to take a moment to assure everyone:

Nothing about the site rules and policies are changing. Nothing about how we enforce them is changing, until we've had a chance to have an official discussion about it with all of you. Our approach to this matter may change in the future, but it will not happen without a moderator lead consultation, and plenty of warning. We won't, and you don't need to, purge your galleries right this moment. (Though we very much appreciate that some people have chosen to double check for copyrighted content.)

You should be aware that copyrighted content, even if you add a disclaimer that it's not yours, even if its a face claim, can and will be removed from your profile if we receive a complaint.

This is a community a discussion that MAY result in some rule clarifications. Our official approach to copyrighted content is the same as it's always been.