Forums » RP Discussion » Well thought out Mary Sues: Is it possible?

The definition of a Mary Sue is as follows:

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A Mary Sue is an original character in fan fiction, usually but not always female, who for one reason or another is deemed undesirable by fan critics.

A character may be judged Mary Sue if she is competent in too many areas, is physically attractive, and/or is viewed as admirable by other sympathetic characters. Mary Sues are generally presumed to be idealized self-inserts rather than true characters, although they may actually be intended as point-of-view characters for the reader. In fan fiction, it is considered extremely gauche, or at least very immature, for an author to create characters based on him- or herself.

"Mary Sue" is an extremely subjective value judgement. One fan's Mary Sue may be another fan's awesome woman action hero. Someone at TvTropes observed that "Mary Sue" is actually the reaction that fans may have to a work that "is unduly favoring a character by changing other characters or the environment in inappropriate ways. When the audience calls "Mary Sue" on a character, the author has shattered their Willing Suspension of Disbelief."

Mary Sue type characters do exist in both fan fiction and canon. The main difficulty with true Mary Sue stories is that they often cause canon characters, established story lines, and the very inner consistency of the canon's reality, to behave wildly out of bounds.
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Now, with that being said, is a Mary Sue still regarded as such if he or she or it has a good backstory as to how they're good at practically anything? Like taking a blood pact from an elder god with one of the side effects being immortality? Just a random thought I had...

The example character you created who has made a blood pact may in fact probably does not qualify as a Mary Sue. For example, if the deal she made to gain her powers has real consequences (for example, her patron could visit her every so often and force her to do horrible tasks for him which conflict with her own moral code). It could very well be a interesting balance for her extremely strong powers.

I personally feel that the term is somewhat a sexist one. If a male character is extremely rich, good looking, beloved by everybody, has great powers etc are often under much less scrutiny than female characters and writers who even check a few of those boxes (Look at Batman for example).

If a young amateur author is writing some wish fulfilment fantasy - it's nothing to get mad about. I guarantee, everybody started with some kind of idolised self-insert of a character. A writer who seriously practices their craft will eventually grow to incorporate more layers of complexity and variety in their characters.

I think true Mary Sues pop up in RP less commonly than many people worry about. I think most people understand their characters need to have flaws and balances, but may be too fearful to let those weaknesses actually show in the RP. Again, this is something that comes with writing experience (I highly recommend playing D&D or another tabletop game, because even the most badarse character will eventually roll a 1. All the best moments in a tabletop campaign are moments where characters have to deal with their failings and weaknesses)

And besides - I still don't think wish fulfilment characters are necessarily a bad thing if all parties in the RP are having a good time. RPing is more '2-player sport' than crafting a fine piece of literature. However, if a character is constantly dragging the attention to themselves, or auto-solving problems, you might want to have a gentle discussion with the RPer in question.

One of the defining characteristics of the Mary Sue is that she's "too perfect", has "no weakness" and ISN'T well thought out.
If you bother to actually think things through, even your seriously overpowered demigod isn't a Mary Sue.

Least that's how i'd interpret it.

That said, with really overpowered characters you do need to be wary of railroading the game, powergaming/metagaming or just annoying other players who don't like the constant "winning". If you don't play an OP character like it's a contest then you should be fine.

For example, in an rp I was in recently there were a few really overpowered like, insanely god level power characters. One player this god-like power seldom came up and her character had moments where she'd fail or get something wrong. The other player? It always felt competative, like, her character HAD to solve the problem, HAD to win every fight, HAD to save the day single handedly and it got pretty dang irritating. It always felt like the spotlight was on that character and everyone else was a secondary character, a background npc who existed purely to be rescued heroically or beaten by this character.
Nobody else enjoyed playing alongside this guy.

Was he a Mary sue/marty stu? No, he had way too many irritating flaws for that, but he WAS an overpowered character played by a bit of a power gamer who didn't seem to comprehend the collaborative nature of rp and what makes it actually fun.

Even gods make mistakes, even gods can get there too late, even gods can screw up. If anything, being wrong sometimes makes a game more interesting right?

And if i'm honest, you see power gamers in rps far far more than you see Mary Sues.

Remember though, having massive super powers doesn't make you a power gamer, using those massive superpowers every 5 minutes to immediately solve every single problem and not allowing anyone else to do anything does.
Dodging EVERY blow is powergaming.
Completely derailing the plot to show off how awesome your character is is powergaming.
Making everything a damn fight is powergaming (not to mention really dang annoying)
Always being RIGHT is powergaming.

But heck yeah you can have god-like powers and have an interesting game outta it!

A Mary Sue (or the male version Gary Stu) is any character in a show/movie/book whether it's original or fan fiction.

A character isn't one unless, they are deemed perfect by the narrator, and all the characters, have no real plot relevance, no character develop, could easily be switched out with any ol character, get in no trouble, face no consequences, and end the book having not changed at all.

There's no such thing as well thought out Mary/Gary's because the term is a term for a character that is not thought out very well, and is often a self-insert. Your example is not a Mary Sue at all, since you took the time to develop her even a little bit.

Many characters people deem as Mary Sue's aren't actually Mary Sues. A lot of time people see the first few episodes of a show or read the first few chapters of a book and claim a character is Mary/Gary, but they don't read or watch enough to see that by the middle of the season or book the character has obvious development and by the end they have grown quit a bit and we have learned a lot about them.

Example, my character Penny is often branded as a Mary Sue by people even though she is definitely not.

Just to slide in my 2 cents;

While growing up writing the definition of a Mary Sue had altered and grown with time. A Mary Sue was a character who was do wonderful, so sweet, so perfect in every possible way except their past. Their past had to be the worst of the worst, but no matter how grizzly and traumatic the character suffered no emotional trauma or development.

Gary Stu were the guys who had to eat nails for breakfast and grunted at you if you were nice to them. The suicide mission takers because their love interest didn't allow them to behave ludicrously and get what they wanted. Gary Stu were characters who were the baddest of the bad and nothing and no one could put a finger up against them without being blown to bits with sheer bad ass talent in every possible fighting style. Don't forget they were the most ruggedly handsome of them all too.

That is what I was told they were as I started writing over 17 years ago. Now they've stayed generally the same, but Damnation makes a good point for they can be too.


These kinds of characters are specifically labeled with the title Mary Sue and Gary/Marty Stu/Sue because they are terrible characters. They can't be well developed characters and also labeled this way.

Okay, so what I'm getting from this is that, I can potentially make like an eighteen year old character have the literal power of a world ending god in all stats and skills and be good at anything and everything BUT this ultimate god power isn't a Gary Stu because when he chooses to evoke this ability, it's a fifty-fifty shot at either killing him or landing him serious injuries to both body and mind to such an extent that he cannot use this power for a few days.

Yes I would consider a god like character with a 50% chance of death when invoking his abilities an interesting character. (Less so if the 'drawback' is a few days in bed)

It would be very interesting to see the character's struggle with his moral obligation to do something vs the very real possibility of their own death.

I don't know if he should be classed as a MarySue/GaryStu but I created the living embodiment of all good, order and balance in the multiverse, and his name is Naakaalil or "Harmony" in translation.
He can end most conflicts with a snap of his fingers, or in his case, a clop of his hooves 'cause he can shape-shift into a horse or a horse-like creature, like a Pegasus.

For me a Mary Sue is when the author goes on and on and on about a character’s good traits and luscious hair or their painful backstory with far too many admirers and people love them for absolutely no reason; it is when there isn’t a logical backstory, things just happen for no reason because the author wills it.

For example, I think my character can qualify for a Mary Sue at this point, good looks, good-ish personality, backstory with a slice of angst and seriously overpowered abilities; has her fingers in all the ‘cool’ pies-that I think is cool- and did I mention that super overpowered and pretty ability I gave her?

But at the same time, she isn’t a Mary Sue by my definition; Mary Sue is just another way to call out bad writing in my opinion; the characters don’t face any hurdles getting to what they want, people either admire/ love/ hate them for no reason other than to up their angst meter or satisfy the authors own personal desires. I don’t focus on the character’s dashing good looks or their painful backstory and mention it in every single post; what happens in RP is their action, their reaction and their thoughts and knowing that the world doesn’t revolve around this character.

Kinda messy probably, as it is more of a rant than anything else; I may or may nor be slightly drunk.

You cannot have a well thought out Mary Sue. The term 'Mary Sue' is nebulous, but the basics is a super powerful, flawless character. A Mary Sue, (or Gary Stu, the male version), is inherently bad, especially when there is supposed to be some sort of tension, moral, or character development. A Mary Sue is someone taking a character that's already reached the end of their journey and placing them at the beginning, expecting the character to learn and grow, but they can't, because they're never challenged. A Mary Sue/Gary Stu's infallibility is the biggest point. They don't fail and don't have faults. You can have powerful characters, but they need failings.


But perhaps you want an example of this, and I know I'll get my head torn off, but the biggest example of a Mary Sue, and how it affects the tension and feel of a story, is Rey from The Force Awakens/The Last Jedi. If you sit back, you'll realize she succeeds at everything she tries, and in ways that are increasingly divorced from reality. The Mary Sue in this instance is a character without aims or tensions, because she has no enemies capable of threatening her, and no faults to overcome. A Mary Sue doesn't fit into a story, because stories are about change.

But that's just my two cents. I eagerly await hate mail PMs for my example.

But therein lies the rub! Let's say that I have a literal god of the universe that is the definition of omnipotence and has the potential to wipe out everything in a mere half thought. People can channel his energy in order to become more stronger, and that god has no clear origin story because he's god. Would that be considered a Gary Stu? Is there an exception to the rule in terms of lore? What exactly would this be considered?

An omnipotent God can be a Stu/Sue, depending on many factions. For instance, if the god was a main character, I'd slap the Stu/Sue mark on him/her instantly, but as a background force, an omnipotent God is acceptable. The instant a God is on someone's side directly (constant intervention/the full weight of their omnipotence), then they are a Sue. But since anyone can channel this God, this God isn't a Stu.