The Art of Saying Goodbye
(and the Ethics concerning Abandoned Stories and Characters)
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The Art of Saying Goodbye
Before coming to RPR, I’ve been a part of countless sites across the web over the years, and I have to say that RPR is the first one I found where one can delete their account at a couple clicks of the mouse and a password. Usually on the other sites, when people reached a point where they were not interested or couldn’t invest the time into what they were doing on the site, they simply abandoned their accounts never to log in again. It usually would happen when a major life event happens, like finishing high school and moving on to university, or getting married, or a new full-time job where the free time to spend on a hobby has been curtailed.
On other sites, accounts sometimes lay dormant for years when suddenly the owner would return (or not). Usually it wasn’t a ‘return to the previous activity’, but a quick shout out to people that had spent a fair amount of time writing with. So I’m finding the phenomenon of outright deletion of accounts here and along with it the deletion of all the characters and the creative work that was put into developing them an odd one. It seems so abrupt and final to me to destroy it all in a couple clicks and is something I can’t quite wrap my head around.
Recently I had three accounts I was writing with abruptly line themselves out. Two without so much as a word, and one who sent a nice short message thanking me for writing with them. It seemed a polite and proper way to say goodbye. I think the outright deletion of accounts here is just an easy way to unload one’s life burdens and move on and is a good tool to just close off a chapter in life. It just seems way too extreme to me.
As I said, I get that life can require our stepping away from the RP hobby, and I have done this a few times along my RP journey, but I can’t fathom the mentality of outright deletion. Know that should I ever ‘disappear’ from the site, my account will remain and will just go dormant. My email address is on my profile in case anyone wants to get ahold of me in my absence (not that I plan on going anywhere). Maybe one day I will return, and all my characters and their writing and history will be intact. I think it’s the archivist in me that has me keep and save all these stories I’ve been involved in over the years.
Any thoughts on this?
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A Question of Ethics
An aside to the above situations. If I and another writer are fully immersed in writing a story together, and one writer suddenly without word lines out their account, does the story become the remaining writers to do with what they will? I would say it does as the outright removal of oneself from the story writing is in a sense de-facto abandonment of what they have contributed. Just my 2¢
Any thoughts on this?
(and the Ethics concerning Abandoned Stories and Characters)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
The Art of Saying Goodbye
Before coming to RPR, I’ve been a part of countless sites across the web over the years, and I have to say that RPR is the first one I found where one can delete their account at a couple clicks of the mouse and a password. Usually on the other sites, when people reached a point where they were not interested or couldn’t invest the time into what they were doing on the site, they simply abandoned their accounts never to log in again. It usually would happen when a major life event happens, like finishing high school and moving on to university, or getting married, or a new full-time job where the free time to spend on a hobby has been curtailed.
On other sites, accounts sometimes lay dormant for years when suddenly the owner would return (or not). Usually it wasn’t a ‘return to the previous activity’, but a quick shout out to people that had spent a fair amount of time writing with. So I’m finding the phenomenon of outright deletion of accounts here and along with it the deletion of all the characters and the creative work that was put into developing them an odd one. It seems so abrupt and final to me to destroy it all in a couple clicks and is something I can’t quite wrap my head around.
Recently I had three accounts I was writing with abruptly line themselves out. Two without so much as a word, and one who sent a nice short message thanking me for writing with them. It seemed a polite and proper way to say goodbye. I think the outright deletion of accounts here is just an easy way to unload one’s life burdens and move on and is a good tool to just close off a chapter in life. It just seems way too extreme to me.
As I said, I get that life can require our stepping away from the RP hobby, and I have done this a few times along my RP journey, but I can’t fathom the mentality of outright deletion. Know that should I ever ‘disappear’ from the site, my account will remain and will just go dormant. My email address is on my profile in case anyone wants to get ahold of me in my absence (not that I plan on going anywhere). Maybe one day I will return, and all my characters and their writing and history will be intact. I think it’s the archivist in me that has me keep and save all these stories I’ve been involved in over the years.
Any thoughts on this?
———————————————-
A Question of Ethics
An aside to the above situations. If I and another writer are fully immersed in writing a story together, and one writer suddenly without word lines out their account, does the story become the remaining writers to do with what they will? I would say it does as the outright removal of oneself from the story writing is in a sense de-facto abandonment of what they have contributed. Just my 2¢
Any thoughts on this?
I think there's something about an account going >>POOF<< and being gone suddenly that's way more unsettling or upsetting than it becoming inactive or the person behind it becoming unresponsive.
I'm not sure what goes through someone's head or the events that happen to lead up to someone deleting their account and all their characters. If it was something upsetting or traumatic and they just don't want the association anymore, I can understand that. People I used to game with often have vanished on other sites and it's always a bit jarring. I try not to take it personally, but not hearing from them before they go stings - especially if we've written together frequently.
For me, it's not so much about the story lines, plots, or character limbo that happens that gets to me. That can always be fixed somehow, someway. I genuinely get concerned about the person (behind the account/characters) and a small part of me hopes nothing horrific happened in their life. But there's no way to know for certain what went on, so I just have to resign myself into not fretting about it too much because there's no way I can get answers unless they come and find me somehow.
You and I are similar in that I don't understand the full deletion and tossing away everything done and the work gone into it. I'm too much of a digital hoarder and have a hard time getting rid of things that I spent a lot of time working on (thank goodness for Google Docs/Drive).
My thoughts the ethics...I think you should be able to do whatever you want to continue the story as you wish if someone else suddenly poofs and the account is deleted. No sense in waiting around for them or trying to work in their characters if they got rid of their account. With them doing that, it sends the message that they are done with the site for whatever reason.
I will add that I personally think you can do whatever you want with your characters and change the story as you want, but you still can't write what happened to someone else's character, if that makes sense. For example, you can say your character thought their character died/went missing instead of saying that their character is actually dead. It's sort of a respect thing (which I know is weird considering someone up and left in a rude way) where if you wouldn't write their character when they're around, you wouldn't write them when they're not. I guess it's taking the higher road and all that.
I'm not sure what goes through someone's head or the events that happen to lead up to someone deleting their account and all their characters. If it was something upsetting or traumatic and they just don't want the association anymore, I can understand that. People I used to game with often have vanished on other sites and it's always a bit jarring. I try not to take it personally, but not hearing from them before they go stings - especially if we've written together frequently.
For me, it's not so much about the story lines, plots, or character limbo that happens that gets to me. That can always be fixed somehow, someway. I genuinely get concerned about the person (behind the account/characters) and a small part of me hopes nothing horrific happened in their life. But there's no way to know for certain what went on, so I just have to resign myself into not fretting about it too much because there's no way I can get answers unless they come and find me somehow.
You and I are similar in that I don't understand the full deletion and tossing away everything done and the work gone into it. I'm too much of a digital hoarder and have a hard time getting rid of things that I spent a lot of time working on (thank goodness for Google Docs/Drive).
Dunedain-Ranger wrote:
A Question of Ethics
An aside to the above situations. If I and another writer are fully immersed in writing a story together, and one writer suddenly without word lines out their account, does the story become the remaining writers to do with what they will? I would say it does as the outright removal of oneself from the story writing is in a sense de-facto abandonment of what they have contributed. Just my 2¢
Any thoughts on this?
An aside to the above situations. If I and another writer are fully immersed in writing a story together, and one writer suddenly without word lines out their account, does the story become the remaining writers to do with what they will? I would say it does as the outright removal of oneself from the story writing is in a sense de-facto abandonment of what they have contributed. Just my 2¢
Any thoughts on this?
My thoughts the ethics...I think you should be able to do whatever you want to continue the story as you wish if someone else suddenly poofs and the account is deleted. No sense in waiting around for them or trying to work in their characters if they got rid of their account. With them doing that, it sends the message that they are done with the site for whatever reason.
I will add that I personally think you can do whatever you want with your characters and change the story as you want, but you still can't write what happened to someone else's character, if that makes sense. For example, you can say your character thought their character died/went missing instead of saying that their character is actually dead. It's sort of a respect thing (which I know is weird considering someone up and left in a rude way) where if you wouldn't write their character when they're around, you wouldn't write them when they're not. I guess it's taking the higher road and all that.
Somnom wrote:
My thoughts the ethics...I think you should be able to do whatever you want to continue the story as you wish if someone else suddenly poofs and the account is deleted. No sense in waiting around for them or trying to work in their characters if they got rid of their account. With them doing that, it sends the message that they are done with the site for whatever reason.
I will add that I personally think you can do whatever you want with your characters and change the story as you want, but you still can't write what happened to someone else's character, if that makes sense. For example, you can say your character thought their character died/went missing instead of saying that their character is actually dead. It's sort of a respect thing (which I know is weird considering someone up and left in a rude way) where if you wouldn't write their character when they're around, you wouldn't write them when they're not. I guess it's taking the higher road and all that.
I will add that I personally think you can do whatever you want with your characters and change the story as you want, but you still can't write what happened to someone else's character, if that makes sense. For example, you can say your character thought their character died/went missing instead of saying that their character is actually dead. It's sort of a respect thing (which I know is weird considering someone up and left in a rude way) where if you wouldn't write their character when they're around, you wouldn't write them when they're not. I guess it's taking the higher road and all that.
I must be a 'low road' kind of guy. If I've invested a lot of effort in writing character relatioships with another character and they bail out, I take on the orphaned character they leave in the story and develop them as I continue the story on my own. I have done this for countless abandoned characters over the years and wrote the storylines to a conclusion.
On the other side, I've had to abandon characters in stories on occasion and I always gave word that I was not continuing and that my characters become an NPC and open for anyone to pick up as their own. The thought I have behind this is the characters become part of the greater story, especially if they are an integral part of said story, and if the original writer isn't wanting to continue writing them and line themselves out, they forfeit any say in what becomes of the characters they originally created in the stories.
And I have sort of accepted the fact that anyone can just turn to dust in a moment on this site, so I try and take precautions in all my RPs here and have a contingency plan should I wake up in the morning and the characters I'm writing with suddenly have a line through their name.
Dunedain-Ranger wrote:
I must be a 'low road' kind of guy. If I've invested a lot of effort in writing character relatioships with another character and they bail out, I take on the orphaned character they leave in the story and develop them as I continue the story on my own. I have done this for countless abandoned characters over the years and wrote the storylines to a conclusion.
On the other side, I've had to abandon characters in stories on occasion and I always gave word that I was not continuing and that my characters become an NPC and open for anyone to pick up as their own. The thought I have behind this is the characters become part of the greater story, especially if they are an integral part of said story, and if the original writer isn't wanting to continue writing them and line themselves out, they forfeit any say in what becomes of the characters they originally created in the stories.
And I have sort of accepted the fact that anyone can just turn to dust in a moment on this site, so I try and take precautions in all my RPs here and have a contingency plan should I wake up in the morning and the characters I'm writing with suddenly have a line through their name.
On the other side, I've had to abandon characters in stories on occasion and I always gave word that I was not continuing and that my characters become an NPC and open for anyone to pick up as their own. The thought I have behind this is the characters become part of the greater story, especially if they are an integral part of said story, and if the original writer isn't wanting to continue writing them and line themselves out, they forfeit any say in what becomes of the characters they originally created in the stories.
And I have sort of accepted the fact that anyone can just turn to dust in a moment on this site, so I try and take precautions in all my RPs here and have a contingency plan should I wake up in the morning and the characters I'm writing with suddenly have a line through their name.
I wouldn't say you're a low road kind of guy, just everyone views things differently and will react differently to situations. Which is what makes the world unpredictable! I should clarify that when I said "you" earlier, I meant a universal "you" and that's how I, personally, would treat the situation. But you (you), as a writer and for your characters, should do what seems right to bring things to a conclusion you're happy with - especially when it falls on you from the other person leaving.
I think that's really neat that you're willing to give your character as an NPC for others to continue the story if you're pulling out of it. I think I'm waaaay too possessive of my characters to be able to consider that as an option.
Taking precautions against people vanishing is a touch sad, but it's what happens unfortunately. Hopefully, you're able to bring things to a satisfactory conclusion when the time is right for that.
I definitely understand the feeling, especially when you happen to be writing with said person or said character that just ups and vanishes. However, recently out of necessity because I simply no longer felt a character and had a handful of more developed ones burgeoning to get a chance to be featured on RPR (and had no funds for more character slots), I ended up deleting a couple. While I made sure that they weren't in roleplays, I actually went through their profile and saved everything in a Google Doc. All the coding too, even if most places don't do BBCode because in the future I might be able to afford a new slot to host them on the RPR, which ultimately gave me another view; while what we see on the outside is a complete abandonment of effort, and destruction of energy as well as time put in crafting profiles, let alone the characters themselves, that's not necessarily the case behind the scenes. 
As for our own beloved characters wrapped up in the story with someone who may have disappeared far beyond our reach, I definitely feel you there, Dunedain. Sometimes I have the ability to scrape that part of the story that I was building for my character, and start as though it never happened. However, sometimes it is too late, and feels imprinted upon my character to the point that I cannot see them without that development that happened in that dropped roleplay. It makes it all that much more difficult, and it can hurt, as the writer and as much as I love to torture my sweet babes, it forces me to stand at a crossroads with them asking "Well, where the hell do I go now?"
It has taken me years with some characters to be able to pick them back up, despite being my own creation and set them on a path again, with that imprint of the past roleplay on them. Over time, I've come to compare it to when an actor leaves a television series and they either have to write them off as if they had died suddenly, or for some reason or another, they left. It can be painful, and sometimes it doesn't work and that character is suddenly left there to rot with that dead roleplay. In that sense, I feel it is very much a reflection of life, however we, the writers, have the ability to pick up and move on which is the ultimate blessing. We still carry within us the ability to create, and the world doesn't stop for just one roleplay.
As for our own beloved characters wrapped up in the story with someone who may have disappeared far beyond our reach, I definitely feel you there, Dunedain. Sometimes I have the ability to scrape that part of the story that I was building for my character, and start as though it never happened. However, sometimes it is too late, and feels imprinted upon my character to the point that I cannot see them without that development that happened in that dropped roleplay. It makes it all that much more difficult, and it can hurt, as the writer and as much as I love to torture my sweet babes, it forces me to stand at a crossroads with them asking "Well, where the hell do I go now?"
It has taken me years with some characters to be able to pick them back up, despite being my own creation and set them on a path again, with that imprint of the past roleplay on them. Over time, I've come to compare it to when an actor leaves a television series and they either have to write them off as if they had died suddenly, or for some reason or another, they left. It can be painful, and sometimes it doesn't work and that character is suddenly left there to rot with that dead roleplay. In that sense, I feel it is very much a reflection of life, however we, the writers, have the ability to pick up and move on which is the ultimate blessing. We still carry within us the ability to create, and the world doesn't stop for just one roleplay.
Quoting Demilicious
Demilicious wrote:
I definitely understand the feeling, especially when you happen to be writing with said person or said character that just ups and vanishes. However, recently out of necessity because I simply no longer felt a character and had a handful of more developed ones burgeoning to get a chance to be featured on RPR (and had no funds for more character slots), I ended up deleting a couple. While I made sure that they weren't in roleplays, I actually went through their profile and saved everything in a Google Doc. All the coding too, even if most places don't do BBCode because in the future I might be able to afford a new slot to host them on the RPR, which ultimately gave me another view; while what we see on the outside is a complete abandonment of effort, and destruction of energy as well as time put in crafting profiles, let alone the characters themselves, that's not necessarily the case behind the scenes.
As for our own beloved characters wrapped up in the story with someone who may have disappeared far beyond our reach, I definitely feel you there, Dunedain. Sometimes I have the ability to scrape that part of the story that I was building for my character, and start as though it never happened. However, sometimes it is too late, and feels imprinted upon my character to the point that I cannot see them without that development that happened in that dropped roleplay. It makes it all that much more difficult, and it can hurt, as the writer and as much as I love to torture my sweet babes, it forces me to stand at a crossroads with them asking "Well, where the hell do I go now?"
It has taken me years with some characters to be able to pick them back up, despite being my own creation and set them on a path again, with that imprint of the past roleplay on them. Over time, I've come to compare it to when an actor leaves a television series and they either have to write them off as if they had died suddenly, or for some reason or another, they left. It can be painful, and sometimes it doesn't work and that character is suddenly left there to rot with that dead roleplay. In that sense, I feel it is very much a reflection of life, however we, the writers, have the ability to pick up and move on which is the ultimate blessing. We still carry within us the ability to create, and the world doesn't stop for just one roleplay.
As for our own beloved characters wrapped up in the story with someone who may have disappeared far beyond our reach, I definitely feel you there, Dunedain. Sometimes I have the ability to scrape that part of the story that I was building for my character, and start as though it never happened. However, sometimes it is too late, and feels imprinted upon my character to the point that I cannot see them without that development that happened in that dropped roleplay. It makes it all that much more difficult, and it can hurt, as the writer and as much as I love to torture my sweet babes, it forces me to stand at a crossroads with them asking "Well, where the hell do I go now?"
It has taken me years with some characters to be able to pick them back up, despite being my own creation and set them on a path again, with that imprint of the past roleplay on them. Over time, I've come to compare it to when an actor leaves a television series and they either have to write them off as if they had died suddenly, or for some reason or another, they left. It can be painful, and sometimes it doesn't work and that character is suddenly left there to rot with that dead roleplay. In that sense, I feel it is very much a reflection of life, however we, the writers, have the ability to pick up and move on which is the ultimate blessing. We still carry within us the ability to create, and the world doesn't stop for just one roleplay.
Yeah, I get doing it with characters as I’ve done the archiving of character profile pages before lining them out. This has to do more with the writers themselves taking the “nuclear option” and obliterating their accounts altogether. It is one reason I tend to avoid RPs with people who insist on having an active and close OOC relationship connection before starting an RP. It's too easy to get to know people and fall in to a certain personal connection with them, and then suddenly without word they are gone. I tend to have the attitude here on RPR to keep the OOC story focused and no more than that. Get a bit close, but not too close. With some I’ve done a little more than that, but I try and keep myself prepared for them to be completely gone tomorrow. Kind of like Forrest Gump when he talks of Jenny... "And just like that, she was gone..."
Gah! That needed a serious edit. I can't type well on my phone.
Personally, I would have to say that the sheer ease at which a person can delete not just a character but a whole account is almost alarming. From my past experience before RPR it took weeks for a mod to do, well, just about anything. We were ‘children’ and they were the ‘adults.’ But that never stopped a similar problem. What happens if the player just ups and leaves with no conclusion? For us, it was never logging on again, for RPR it’s three clicks and gone forever.
I won’t lie, I have done this. Not deleting an account but simply leaving before finishing a story. Generally it had reasons unrelated to IC and more to do with OOC. Either interacting with the writer became an impossibly demanding task, or I had my own life drama that needed to take precedence over any online activity.
I can’t say for sure why someone would delete an account, especially if they put time and/or money into it. Perhaps they know they won’t be coming back and having it linger seems like a loose end. Or maybe they just don't want to take up virtual space on a site they won’t be using. It’s not something that can really be answered unless you can track down the person who deleted their own account, which is creepy unless you were actually friends.
There have been times I have been contacted by people who switched accounts. Were back with the same characters and another name. I never wanted to ask why, because life away from the computer can be a very complex and personal thing and no matter how that is answered it could be quite awkward for the other person. Pushing for that sort of information for my own needs feels selfish, not because I shouldn’t have answers but maybe because it’s not my right to have them explain themselves to someone they don’t really know.
On the note of ethics, I would have to say that you aren’t taking the low road, just the one less traveled, agreeing with Somnom that “everyone views things differently and will react differently to situations.” Writing other people’s characters is wrong when they are around, when they are playing with you and care about the choices their character is making. But what happens when they stop caring?
I have given some of my characters up to being NPC’s and even given up the rights to some of my creations, which was a hard and heart wrenching decision to make, because I didn’t want to be part of RP any longer. Ultimately it feels like the right choice, if only so that I can respect that while my needs are being filled the needs of someone who I worked with to make a story are too. RP is a two way street, it’s why all us players aren’t sitting alone writing books and are seeking out other people to write with, because of that there needs to be respect on both sides. Leaving without saying goodbye, without creating an exit plan or the ability to create one is a selfish act in my opinion, but not one that can necessarily be blamed on any one person. As strange as that sounds.
I won’t lie, I have done this. Not deleting an account but simply leaving before finishing a story. Generally it had reasons unrelated to IC and more to do with OOC. Either interacting with the writer became an impossibly demanding task, or I had my own life drama that needed to take precedence over any online activity.
I can’t say for sure why someone would delete an account, especially if they put time and/or money into it. Perhaps they know they won’t be coming back and having it linger seems like a loose end. Or maybe they just don't want to take up virtual space on a site they won’t be using. It’s not something that can really be answered unless you can track down the person who deleted their own account, which is creepy unless you were actually friends.
There have been times I have been contacted by people who switched accounts. Were back with the same characters and another name. I never wanted to ask why, because life away from the computer can be a very complex and personal thing and no matter how that is answered it could be quite awkward for the other person. Pushing for that sort of information for my own needs feels selfish, not because I shouldn’t have answers but maybe because it’s not my right to have them explain themselves to someone they don’t really know.
On the note of ethics, I would have to say that you aren’t taking the low road, just the one less traveled, agreeing with Somnom that “everyone views things differently and will react differently to situations.” Writing other people’s characters is wrong when they are around, when they are playing with you and care about the choices their character is making. But what happens when they stop caring?
I have given some of my characters up to being NPC’s and even given up the rights to some of my creations, which was a hard and heart wrenching decision to make, because I didn’t want to be part of RP any longer. Ultimately it feels like the right choice, if only so that I can respect that while my needs are being filled the needs of someone who I worked with to make a story are too. RP is a two way street, it’s why all us players aren’t sitting alone writing books and are seeking out other people to write with, because of that there needs to be respect on both sides. Leaving without saying goodbye, without creating an exit plan or the ability to create one is a selfish act in my opinion, but not one that can necessarily be blamed on any one person. As strange as that sounds.
I typed like 110000 paragraphs out for this and then my internet crapped out on my so I will have to settle for something far less wordy. x.x (but probably still wordy)
Basically what I said was... Some people need that extreme of deleting their accounts. They want the closure, ending the chapter and moving on. I don't think that's a bad or a selfish thing - though I personally if I ever did delete my account (unlikely) would say goodbye first. I know the only reason I'd delete my account is because I want the control and comfort of it being gone for good. No temptation to come back because I still technically have an account. It'd force me to make a new account if I wanted to come back which to be would be a good thing because with some places just that would remind me why I left and I'd take a breath and close the tab.
So for a lot of people it's what they need, and what gives them a sense of control and peace of mind.
In regards to writing someone elses character once they are gone?
No. I personally would be really bothered by someone doing this. As much as it sucks, it's just not anyone but their character. Just because a character isn't on here anymore and a player isn't - doesn't mean the character doesn't exist and isn't still 100% theirs unless they say otherwise. I have deleted plenty of characters that I am no longer writing in RP's they were in but am still writing on my own or even with other people other places. They'll still my characters. I still care what's happening with them.
Redoing and rewriting the story, plot, with a character of your own creation, changed names, and everything. Is fine, I've done that.
But it's like a lot of authors don't want fanfic written about their characters and worlds - and that's perfectly valid.
Ethically it's...not great, it's in a very grey area for certain. I am not okay with someone doing such a thing, someone else might be okay with it - but the key is consent, and permission. You are personally able to give consent, you have given it before. These people who just disappear, likely have no way to give consent, there's no way to get it from them.
So I think as much as it sucks, if someone can't continue the story with out that character, can't rewrite it with another character, then that might just need to be the bullet that is bitten.
I know some people might say 'oh well they disrespected and upset me by leaving without a word so it doens't matter if they would be unhappy about it' but I don't really have the mindset that they upset and disrespected me by leaving without saying anything so I can take and write their characters even if it upsets them - I'd personally just not go down that road.
Someone isn't a bad person if they continue writing another persons character after they leave without their permission, but it's definitely not something I would suggest, and I just couldn't do it myself because I'd be too busy wondering if they'd be bothered by it, and thinking about how I just don't write the character as well as they did - because it's their character and not mine.
Like when my ex best friend and I broke up as friends and stopped talking entirely. I was left with the book we had co-written together. Half her character, half my character. As difficult as it was I just filled the book away because I couldn't publish it as half of it was hers, and I couldn't write the second book as half of it would need to be her character, who isn't mine to write.
This is a good topic, I wish my even longer in depth post on it hadn't gotten wiped out lol! Thanks for posting.
Basically what I said was... Some people need that extreme of deleting their accounts. They want the closure, ending the chapter and moving on. I don't think that's a bad or a selfish thing - though I personally if I ever did delete my account (unlikely) would say goodbye first. I know the only reason I'd delete my account is because I want the control and comfort of it being gone for good. No temptation to come back because I still technically have an account. It'd force me to make a new account if I wanted to come back which to be would be a good thing because with some places just that would remind me why I left and I'd take a breath and close the tab.
So for a lot of people it's what they need, and what gives them a sense of control and peace of mind.
In regards to writing someone elses character once they are gone?
No. I personally would be really bothered by someone doing this. As much as it sucks, it's just not anyone but their character. Just because a character isn't on here anymore and a player isn't - doesn't mean the character doesn't exist and isn't still 100% theirs unless they say otherwise. I have deleted plenty of characters that I am no longer writing in RP's they were in but am still writing on my own or even with other people other places. They'll still my characters. I still care what's happening with them.
Redoing and rewriting the story, plot, with a character of your own creation, changed names, and everything. Is fine, I've done that.
But it's like a lot of authors don't want fanfic written about their characters and worlds - and that's perfectly valid.
Ethically it's...not great, it's in a very grey area for certain. I am not okay with someone doing such a thing, someone else might be okay with it - but the key is consent, and permission. You are personally able to give consent, you have given it before. These people who just disappear, likely have no way to give consent, there's no way to get it from them.
So I think as much as it sucks, if someone can't continue the story with out that character, can't rewrite it with another character, then that might just need to be the bullet that is bitten.
I know some people might say 'oh well they disrespected and upset me by leaving without a word so it doens't matter if they would be unhappy about it' but I don't really have the mindset that they upset and disrespected me by leaving without saying anything so I can take and write their characters even if it upsets them - I'd personally just not go down that road.
Someone isn't a bad person if they continue writing another persons character after they leave without their permission, but it's definitely not something I would suggest, and I just couldn't do it myself because I'd be too busy wondering if they'd be bothered by it, and thinking about how I just don't write the character as well as they did - because it's their character and not mine.
Like when my ex best friend and I broke up as friends and stopped talking entirely. I was left with the book we had co-written together. Half her character, half my character. As difficult as it was I just filled the book away because I couldn't publish it as half of it was hers, and I couldn't write the second book as half of it would need to be her character, who isn't mine to write.
This is a good topic, I wish my even longer in depth post on it hadn't gotten wiped out lol! Thanks for posting.
Mercyinreach wrote:
I typed like 110000 paragraphs out for this and then my internet crapped out on my so I will have to settle for something far less wordy. x.x (but probably still wordy)
I wish I could have read your lost post. We definitely see things differently. I guess my view comes from there being some assumed social courtesy when two writers enter into an agreement to collaboratively write a story. Both put extensive effort into their characters and writing and for me, it comes with some responsibility. I usually assume the other person feels the same way, but have accepted in the many stories abandoned along the way that many don't see it as I do. If they decide to end their contribution to the story, I have no problem with it.
It's the way it is ended that I use as a barometer on whether I assume control of their characters. Examples...
1. Communication - A social courtesy. Writer says in OOC that they can't or don't want to continue the story. They also say whether they are ok or not with their characters being used as NPC or taken control of. If they say that they don't want their characters used, then I ask that they write a closer for their characters if they can to give them the finish they want. If they can't then I write it and remove them from the story and carry on from there. If their character is vital to the whole storyline, I will then eplogue the story and maybe if I'm deeply invested and interested in it, will start a new storyline for my character from that point or sometime in the future and write from there, either on my own or collaboratively with a new writing partner and new characters.
2. No communication - the method of ending.
a. Ghosting: If my co-writer simply stops replying to the story and OOC yet I see them and/or their characters on the forum and/or online, I will send them a follow up OOC. If that goes unanswered I take that as an indication that they have no intention of talking to me again and I assume they have abandoned the story. This is a bit of salt in a wound when it happens, and I will do what I like with their characters in that story. I don't contact them again or block them or unfriend them or anything extreme. I just continue the story with all the characters as I see fit.
b. Disappearance: If my co-writer stops replying or responding to OOC and do not log in or are seen on-site, I usually have more leniency toward their characters and their part of the story. I usually put it away in a dormant file in hopes they return someday. I may continue it or may not. I give them the benefit of the doubt as they are not in a true sense 'ghosting' as above.
c. Deletion: This sort of dovetails with the earlier notes in that its how it is done. My rule is If there is no communication before account deletion, I take that as abandonment of said characters in stories I'm involved in and they become mine to do with what I want. If they cared at all about them, they would have the common courtesy to say something. The fact it takes two clicks and a password to nuke one's account, it is a conscience decision made at that time. to care what happens with their character creations or not. The decision is theirs when they take that step.
I can definitely see how this would be a...very morally heated issue. All I can really say is, if I was at the point where I was so upset that I delete my account without warning, I probably would be at the point where I don't care what happens with the characters, at least in the short term. I probably wouldn't mind my partner finishing the story with them, but still please do not continue to make more stories with them after the current story is capped off, as I would, in time, no doubt regret my decision.
Side note...honestly it sounds far too easy to me to delete an account. Two clicks and a password? I feel like that's not enough of a safety margin to prevent accidental deletions. I fully admit I am not sure at what level I would feel comfortable with saying, 'hey, this minimizes accidents as much as is reasonably possible,' but those two clicks don't seem like they meet that criteria, to me.
Perhaps requiring entering a captcha to confirm their intent, and not just their password?
Side note...honestly it sounds far too easy to me to delete an account. Two clicks and a password? I feel like that's not enough of a safety margin to prevent accidental deletions. I fully admit I am not sure at what level I would feel comfortable with saying, 'hey, this minimizes accidents as much as is reasonably possible,' but those two clicks don't seem like they meet that criteria, to me.
Perhaps requiring entering a captcha to confirm their intent, and not just their password?
Dunedain-Ranger wrote:
Any thoughts on this?
I think I may be on the opposite end of the spectrum and I don't mean for this to sound argumentative, just as a differing point of view. I admit up front I'm super blunt and although I try really hard to be diplomatic, sometimes I cut painfully to the point. I hope you'll all understand I'm not trying to insult you or single you out. Just offering up something to think about-
Ethics and social awareness have a definite place, they're valid and I would never try to claim they aren't. But I have serious reservations on giving 'ghosting' and account deletion that sort of depth or pre meditative relevance. Quite frankly that makes about as much sense as calling someone a bigot for hating country music.
I'm coming from the standpoint that someone deciding not to engage further with someone else is not so much a question of ethics as it is boundaries. I'd respectfully encourage others who have found themselves crushed by ghosting or account deletion to look deeper rather than simply taking another person's actions as a personal affront. People are going to decide not to talk to you for the rest of your lives, it will be an occurrence you have to deal with on some degree or another until the day you pass on. But you can still decide how much space you reserve in your own life for that rejection. I can pretty much guarantee you they aren't.
I understand also this is really hard and we all have to come to our own terms with it. So take my words or reject them, it's entirely up to you.
Thanks for your thoughts Selkie. I didn't see it as argumentative at all. I see you have a very strong opinion that differs greatly with mine. I'm fine with how anyone wants to shut down their activities as it is their right to do so in any manner they choose. I don't care any less or have any different feelings toward them and am glad they were for a time a part of my RP experience. What is left me from the experiences I do with as I choose.
This might be worth considering: while in many cases people do choose to delete their own accounts, there are also people who get caught breaking rules and have their accounts removed for them.
For example, there are instances where minors under the age of 13 sign up for an account, but it's against Federal law for RPR to store information on children under 13, which means that the account may not exist and has to be removed. I do believe Kim usually offers people the chance to back up their profiles and say their goodbyes, but that doesn't mean people always get around to doing so.
It can be hugely embarrassing and feel unfair to be told your account will be removed, which can make it difficult for someone to reach out about it.
What you write belongs to you. If a person has contributed to a story, the story may continue without them if they abandon the game, but they never lose the right to say what happens with the parts they contributed, including their character. That still belongs to them. They chose to no longer participate, not to give up the rights to the material they created.
In that sense, continuing to play someone else's character is something that makes me feel incredibly alarmed and uncomfortable. That character is not yours to play with, it still belongs to the original author, and unless they've expressed permission for you to continue playing their character I would strongly discourage it. Making references to the character and past events is normal and not any kind of copyright infringement on its own, but using the character entirely by using the information someone else wrote and continuing with it sounds like a copyright infringement to me. It feels the same as copying someone else's character profile and then playing as that character - it would not be okay.
Please remember that we're talking about real people who devoted time and effort into their creation. Abandoning a group activity does not equal abandoning your rights. Please be courteous and respectful of this.
For example, there are instances where minors under the age of 13 sign up for an account, but it's against Federal law for RPR to store information on children under 13, which means that the account may not exist and has to be removed. I do believe Kim usually offers people the chance to back up their profiles and say their goodbyes, but that doesn't mean people always get around to doing so.
It can be hugely embarrassing and feel unfair to be told your account will be removed, which can make it difficult for someone to reach out about it.
Dunedain-Ranger wrote:
An aside to the above situations. If I and another writer are fully immersed in writing a story together, and one writer suddenly without word lines out their account, does the story become the remaining writers to do with what they will? I would say it does as the outright removal of oneself from the story writing is in a sense de-facto abandonment of what they have contributed. Just my 2¢
What you write belongs to you. If a person has contributed to a story, the story may continue without them if they abandon the game, but they never lose the right to say what happens with the parts they contributed, including their character. That still belongs to them. They chose to no longer participate, not to give up the rights to the material they created.
In that sense, continuing to play someone else's character is something that makes me feel incredibly alarmed and uncomfortable. That character is not yours to play with, it still belongs to the original author, and unless they've expressed permission for you to continue playing their character I would strongly discourage it. Making references to the character and past events is normal and not any kind of copyright infringement on its own, but using the character entirely by using the information someone else wrote and continuing with it sounds like a copyright infringement to me. It feels the same as copying someone else's character profile and then playing as that character - it would not be okay.
Please remember that we're talking about real people who devoted time and effort into their creation. Abandoning a group activity does not equal abandoning your rights. Please be courteous and respectful of this.
Interesting insights Sanne. It brings to mind a topic I started a number of months ago called ‘Writers vs Gamers’
Writers write stories. Gamers play Games. There is a difference, and I think you hit the nail on the head as to how the art of rp is approached and it explains a lot.
As for those I was co-writing stories with deciding to voluntarily remove all traces of themselves without a word, they won’t be able to access the story and see what I do or not do with it after they’re gone.
This is a very enlightening thread! Love reading all the varied opinions. With this thread, the ones on blocking, and the one on managing expectations, it’s quite clear that some social courtesies I learned a long time ago and lived by for the most part don’t seem to apply much in this day and age.
I’ve been asked privately if I was upset about being abandoned when I started this thread. The answer is no, I’m not. To be clear, I’m not mad at anybody. I expressed my thoughts on the phenomenon and how I deal with it, and was happy to get opinions on how others saw it. It is very enlightening.
Writers write stories. Gamers play Games. There is a difference, and I think you hit the nail on the head as to how the art of rp is approached and it explains a lot.
As for those I was co-writing stories with deciding to voluntarily remove all traces of themselves without a word, they won’t be able to access the story and see what I do or not do with it after they’re gone.
This is a very enlightening thread! Love reading all the varied opinions. With this thread, the ones on blocking, and the one on managing expectations, it’s quite clear that some social courtesies I learned a long time ago and lived by for the most part don’t seem to apply much in this day and age.
I’ve been asked privately if I was upset about being abandoned when I started this thread. The answer is no, I’m not. To be clear, I’m not mad at anybody. I expressed my thoughts on the phenomenon and how I deal with it, and was happy to get opinions on how others saw it. It is very enlightening.
Thanks for introducing this topic, Dunedain Ranger. We share two co-writers who recently deleted (well, you know that already, but for context to other ppl).
I think I am at the midpoint of all of the opinions on here about the ease of complete deletion.
I think that maybe...maaaybe (I'd have to think this through), but maaaybe, there should be an easy way to click one button that sends a message out to everyone you have exchanged messages with, or everyone on your friends list, or something like that. Maybe a prompt that appears that gives the option to choose one of several messages or write your own, or choose "no thanks," to move past the prompt, and then if you want to click one of the messages, you hit submit and it sends, then you enter your password and finish the deletion. Something like:
"Would you like to send one of the following messages to everyone on your friends list?
- (check box) suggested generic message A
- (check box) suggested generic message B
- (check box) suggested generic message C
Or, write your own message:
(A text box would be here)
(A list of your friends would be here with little checkmarks by their names, in case you want to uncheck certain people for any reason, but all of the boxes by default would be already checked)
Then a big "Send Message Now" button here.
Then a "No Thanks" button here.
That's my idea. Idk.
I don't know if it should be harder to delete an account than it is now, but I think it should be easier to say goodbye. You know what I mean? When under stress a simple, optional prewritten message being automatically offered might get rid of a lot of the reasons people don't say goodbye when they leave.
That being said, I can understand what Mercy is saying about it being tempting to come back if there's still an account there waiting for you. Or if it was easy to resurrect it. Idk maybe a "resurrect profile" option might be an ok idea though? But then that would take up a lot of server space. Hmm.
I dunno what could be done, but I feel the burn of these recent deletions for sure.
About the other thing, adopting their characters, I can see where you're coming from, but after thinking about it, I think the safest option is the thing Demi mentioned, kind of writing in an untimely end for their character, but from the future, where it has already happened, and your characters are talking about it and referring to it without actually writing their character. Like they do in a show. I think that's the best option in my opinion.
Thanks again for bringing this up. You're taking it better than I am, it personally bothers me that the people deleted and I'm glad to see such feelings can evolve over time into not feeling as hurt by it.
I think I am at the midpoint of all of the opinions on here about the ease of complete deletion.
I think that maybe...maaaybe (I'd have to think this through), but maaaybe, there should be an easy way to click one button that sends a message out to everyone you have exchanged messages with, or everyone on your friends list, or something like that. Maybe a prompt that appears that gives the option to choose one of several messages or write your own, or choose "no thanks," to move past the prompt, and then if you want to click one of the messages, you hit submit and it sends, then you enter your password and finish the deletion. Something like:
"Would you like to send one of the following messages to everyone on your friends list?
- (check box) suggested generic message A
- (check box) suggested generic message B
- (check box) suggested generic message C
Or, write your own message:
(A text box would be here)
(A list of your friends would be here with little checkmarks by their names, in case you want to uncheck certain people for any reason, but all of the boxes by default would be already checked)
Then a big "Send Message Now" button here.
Then a "No Thanks" button here.
That's my idea. Idk.
I don't know if it should be harder to delete an account than it is now, but I think it should be easier to say goodbye. You know what I mean? When under stress a simple, optional prewritten message being automatically offered might get rid of a lot of the reasons people don't say goodbye when they leave.
That being said, I can understand what Mercy is saying about it being tempting to come back if there's still an account there waiting for you. Or if it was easy to resurrect it. Idk maybe a "resurrect profile" option might be an ok idea though? But then that would take up a lot of server space. Hmm.
I dunno what could be done, but I feel the burn of these recent deletions for sure.
About the other thing, adopting their characters, I can see where you're coming from, but after thinking about it, I think the safest option is the thing Demi mentioned, kind of writing in an untimely end for their character, but from the future, where it has already happened, and your characters are talking about it and referring to it without actually writing their character. Like they do in a show. I think that's the best option in my opinion.
Thanks again for bringing this up. You're taking it better than I am, it personally bothers me that the people deleted and I'm glad to see such feelings can evolve over time into not feeling as hurt by it.
Abigail_Austin wrote:
I think that maybe...maaaybe (I'd have to think this through), but maaaybe, there should be an easy way to click one button that sends a message out to everyone you have exchanged messages with, or everyone on your friends list, or something like that. Maybe a prompt that appears that gives the option to choose one of several messages or write your own, or choose "no thanks," to move past the prompt, and then if you want to click one of the messages, you hit submit and it sends, then you enter your password and finish the deletion.
"Would you like to send one of the following messages to everyone on your friends list?
- (check box) suggested generic message A
- (check box) suggested generic message B
- (check box) suggested generic message C
Or, write your own message:
(A text box would be here)
(A list of your friends would be here with little checkmarks by their names, in case you want to uncheck certain people for any reason, but all of the boxes by default would be already checked)
Then a big "Send Message Now" button here.
"Would you like to send one of the following messages to everyone on your friends list?
- (check box) suggested generic message A
- (check box) suggested generic message B
- (check box) suggested generic message C
Or, write your own message:
(A text box would be here)
(A list of your friends would be here with little checkmarks by their names, in case you want to uncheck certain people for any reason, but all of the boxes by default would be already checked)
Then a big "Send Message Now" button here.
I think this is an important post to have up. Just in the past couple of months, 4 people that I was roleplaying with deleted their accounts with no trace of a goodbye. It kind of saddened and worried me, as one of the people had problems with depression. I now wish I could contact them and say how much I enjoyed roleplaying with all four of them, whether or not it ended. If you delete your account, I now wouldn't expect a goodbye as nobody so far has said it to me.
In that case, I'm sorry if this answers no questions and has no reason to exist. I will gladly edit my post to VOID if needed.
In that case, I'm sorry if this answers no questions and has no reason to exist. I will gladly edit my post to VOID if needed.
Quote:
and I will do what I like with their characters in that story. I don't contact them again or block them or unfriend them or anything extreme. I just continue the story with all the characters as I see fit.
For collaborative free-form RP such as is common on the RPR, neither of these two things apply - generally, people make their characters not hand-tailored to a specific story, they design the character they want to play BEFORE seeking out a setting or story to put it into. Typically, that character will be inserted into many stories, potentially dozens or hundreds in its "career." And in most of those stories, there will be no clear person "in charge" such as there is in a tabletop game. The writers are generally peers collaborating.
This strikes me as an entirely different situation, and makes the idea of relinquishing one's character through inaction alarming for many people. I think most in a free-form peer type RP would feel that their character belongs to them, and the only way they can relinquish it to another is if they open their mouth and give permission for that. In fact, the RPR's official stance would generally swing this way in most situations if we got a complaint.
I think there's something to be said for finding a way to "retire" an important character that has vanished by writing a few posts to get them out of the game, perhaps by saying an emergency comes up that forces them to leave or the scene to close. But to continue with them as a central feature in the story is very fraught, and goes against the "scope" rule that most freeform online RPs work by. If someone is hospitalized and comes back to discover that their character has been doing things without them, that can feel very bad.
But in the scenario where they are still talking on the site elsewhere, just not to you - if someone has stopped talking to just you, this is actually a very clear piece of communication. This person is very likely saying they do not feel comfortable either with you or with the RP, at least for right now. To take this as permission to do anything you wish with their OC is only going to deepen the problem they perceive.
tl;dr: An important distinction here is: Was the character made ONLY FOR THAT SETTING or no? If it was made for the setting, then it may be part of that story. But if it's someone's OC that might participate in dozens of settings, the assumptions about ownership and permissions that everyone is working with should be very different.
Kim wrote:
Quote:
and I will do what I like with their characters in that story. I don't contact them again or block them or unfriend them or anything extreme. I just continue the story with all the characters as I see fit.
For collaborative free-form RP such as is common on the RPR, neither of these two things apply - generally, people make their characters not hand-tailored to a specific story, they design the character they want to play BEFORE seeking out a setting or story to put it into. Typically, that character will be inserted into many stories, potentially dozens or hundreds in its "career." And in most of those stories, there will be no clear person "in charge" such as there is in a tabletop game. The writers are generally peers collaborating.
This strikes me as an entirely different situation, and makes the idea of relinquishing one's character through inaction alarming for many people. I think most in a free-form peer type RP would feel that their character belongs to them, and the only way they can relinquish it to another is if they open their mouth and give permission for that. In fact, the RPR's official stance would generally swing this way in most situations if we got a complaint.
I think there's something to be said for finding a way to "retire" an important character that has vanished by writing a few posts to get them out of the game, perhaps by saying an emergency comes up that forces them to leave or the scene to close. But to continue with them as a central feature in the story is very fraught, and goes against the "scope" rule that most freeform online RPs work by. If someone is hospitalized and comes back to discover that their character has been doing things without them, that can feel very bad.
But in the scenario where they are still talking on the site elsewhere, just not to you - if someone has stopped talking to just you, this is actually a very clear piece of communication. This person is very likely saying they do not feel comfortable either with you or with the RP, at least for right now. To take this as permission to do anything you wish with their OC is only going to deepen the problem they perceive.
tl;dr: An important distinction here is: Was the character made ONLY FOR THAT SETTING or no? If it was made for the setting, then it may be part of that story. But if it's someone's OC that might participate in dozens of settings, the assumptions about ownership and permissions that everyone is working with should be very different.
To be clear, I don't continue writing the story on the 1x1 messages. They get filed away in a 'Dormant' RP folder where they either remain to languish or until such time they come back to life with a response. If the writer/ character lines themselves out the won’t be coming back to the story.
It's when I write out my character story that I continue and close out the abandoned characters, so it never sees any public eyes. Should I want to post it somewhere as part of a story of my character(s), I rewrite the whole RP into a part of that character’s story.
This thread should have been split into two I think as there are two distinct subjects.
Ranger, I think part of your post got cut off there.
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