Forums » Smalltalk » Coltara and Degu Leaving The Gender Closet

[ Since this is one of my major communities - for Degu and I both - I figured this was among the best places to post this. The people I care about most and want to know are for the most part here. ]

Hello, all!

This is a very serious and meaningful occasion for me. I suppose we can call it a quarter life crisis, but this year has been one of exponential epiphany and growth. I've made many wonderful friends, stopped eating my fellow mammals, and have become more and more confident with my goals and decisions in life.

When I decided to describe myself as a homoromantic asexual, it never really felt quite right. While the asexual part absolutely did, homoromantic or lesbian just seemed like a convenient label for explaining my typical mental attraction towards women more often then men, but as time went on that line blurred and vanished too. Was I panromantic alongside my complete physical disinterest? I wasn't entirely sure.

Something still never felt quite right. I didn't have a feeling of settling into who I was and accepting the label as the best way to describe myself. It didn't click as an identity and I never had a 'coming out' experience to speak of. I might have just went along with it because most people assumed I was gay already and told me what to believe about myself - there were a lot of people who declared that they 'knew it before I did'.

Yet with that description, there was no feeling of belonging and something in the back of my mind continued to be dissatisfied and confused. I didn't have a feeling of 'coming out' or any sort of embracing of a personal truth. I felt nothing much at all, really - not confusion or pride or worry. I was entirely neutral to it, but not out of a comfort or acceptance. I just used that word to explain to people why I wasn't interested in sexuality or relationships. I've had to dissuade a lot of interested parties, but telling them I was a lesbian never felt honest.

Neutral. That was the word I'd been ignoring for so long. That was the reality I had been ignoring as an integral part of who I was. I think perhaps the silent conditioning of society just never let me accept it. I think the bundle of mental scars that my childhood left me with put up a wall to help me ignore myself, even as I was celebrating the diversity of my friends.

My personal reality and perception of the world is one entirely dismissive of assigned expectations. I've always found gender and sexuality of no personal importance and not something society should place so much emphasis and concern over. I've always been androgynous in appearance and behavior, preferred this in character design often, and never have found anyone sexually attractive, but appreciate all people in an aesthetic sense. I've struggled in relationships as a result of these things.

As a child I more or less ignored gender roles, norms, and expectations because they never appealed or made any sense to me. I wore what I liked and played with what I liked and read what I liked. Those interests covered every category they had to offer, no consideration for what gender it was 'meant' for ever of importance. The bulk of my friends - as is still true now - were boys, because I understood and related to them better. They liked to play the way I did. They didn't care about the things I didn't care about.

My mother did try to fashion me as a girl - pink and purple everywhere, unicorns and rainbows, long princess hair and Barbie dolls. I didn't actively or even consciously defy this training, doing so just came naturally to me. I wasn't interested. My favorite color is now orange and I love monsters and science fiction.

I always knew that part of my extreme depression and social awkwardness of the past stemmed from the way my mother raised me - long story short, she was a very manipulative and emotionally abusive woman, constantly asserting that I was worthless and needed to stay and take care of her for the unforeseeable future. When I turned eighteen and escaped the pit twisting me up so badly inside, an unpleasant environment preventing me from growing, I immediately cut off the long hair my mother had never let my cut for the entire duration of my life with her.

It was a wonderful feeling. I continued to cut it shorter and shorter and the shorter it got, the happier I got. It wasn't because I was enjoying a more 'boyish' look, but because it represented the freedom from the tyranny of my awful mother and the destruction of the expectations that had been placed on me.

As I got older, gender gradually became a less and less meaningful concept to me. All the perceptions, expectations, norms, and labeling applied to it just non-universal human constructions like almost everything (if not literally everything) we consider 'normal' or 'right' or 'natural'. It's all conditioning and indoctrination. A constricting indoctrination preventing humanity from seeing the incredible beauty of diversity not just in the variation of life, but the variation of how we live and interact. I do not understand why we are so dead set on drawing lines in the sand and limiting ourselves. I think it's mass madness that functions not unlike religion.

As a transhumanist I see a great positivity in the idea of a postgender or at least genderblind society. I feel that humanity has the potential - if not the wisdom or self-control - to achieve something much more than the primitive society we have now and consider so advanced. Yes, perhaps technologically. I am under the opinion that mentally and emotionally we have a very long way to go before we stop being more than children.

I prefer agender out of all the applicable terminology as it best reflects my complete apathy on the subject and the desire to overcome the constructed conceptions of what gender even means outside of the biological sphere.

I am declaring myself an asexual agender.

I would prefer from now on you use they/them/their to refer to me and no longer she/her.
What I find interesting is that I have three such friends on the same path of neutrality - unsure if we simply find each other (as I also tend to attract and make friends with those of the 'queer' community in general) or this is an indication of a brighter future, but whatever the case it's fascinating.

I now turn your attention to my good friend Degu. How's the weather over there, Degu?

Thankyou Tar!

Indeed today is a big step for the both of us and i'm so glad Tar has given me the kick in the ass i need to get on with it. This is something that's been floating around in my mind for a very very long time now, though not something I've recognized or understood for long.

Ever since i was little i didn't really know what i was, honestly. I always enjoyed wearing boys clothes but sometimes girls clothes too. My favorite toys were K'nex and Lego, the occasional dinosaur and whatnot and as with Tar here, all my friends were boys. In fact my closest friend is a guy i met 14 years ago.

I could never understand why us being friends was such taboo. Everyone made such a big deal of it. Parents, Children, Family. We HAD to be dating, even at the age of 7 we had to be dating surely! Even at a young age such things infuriated me because they didn't make sense. As we grew up, he turned out to be gay and I didn't really know what i was, really. Everyone around me seemed to find themselves whilst i still felt like i hadn't settled on anything.

I had never been attracted to anyone, male or female. Sexual encounters were of no interest to me and quite honestly neither were relationships. All of my relationships crumbled due to this, some because the partner i was with couldn't discern between love and sex at all and believed it to be an obligation. I didn't know why i felt this way, I was brought up with what my mother understood which was boys do this, girls do that. HOWEVER in whatever i have decided to do for myself she has been very understanding and supportive, she just wants me to be myself as long as it makes me happy and for that i am grateful.

A little while after my last relationship broke up i was angry at the way i'd been treated, but also i couldn't understand why it was so important to have sex when i was always just happy to be around people. The personality was all that mattered to me. So eventually i went looking for answers. Asexuality was what i found and it seemed to fit how i had always felt.

That wasn't really everything, though. See, I've never really identified with a gender entirely. Honestly it was never something that crossed my mind until i was forced to think about it. Signing forms, buying clothes, looking at myself in the mirror, etc. Truth of the matter is, it doesn't matter to me. The greatest thing i value in any living creature is who they are inside and not their body. Be it male, female, fur or feathers, a being is a being.

I would also prefer from now on if referring to me you used they/them/their but i will not jump down your throat if you forget, I'm laid back and quite honestly I've grown used to 'he' so it might be used now and then regardless but without a real meaning behind it. I hope in the future we can see more gender neutrality in society. I genuinely feel like once you take a step back from such things a great weight does get lifted off your shoulders and you realize how much society silently expected from you from day to day.

Thanks for reading and good on you Tar for doing this, and thanks for letting me join you in coming out officially.

[PS: Pretty much everything Tar said, they're far more literate than i am]

I'm really proud of you two, and so happy for you. c: I'm not quite the same as you - I'm gender fluid/queer - but welcome to the 'they' club!

I love both of you.

While I can't agree with your strive for a gender-neutral society due to my religious feelings, I do agree that we need to put less emphasis on 'girls should do/be this, guys should do/be that'. Also, I am very happy for you two being able to find a you that you feel comfortable with!

On the topic of pronouns, however, that's always been difficult for me. I have to make a conscious effort for it, but more often than not, I will probably just accidentally call you by your Furcadia character's gender, and I hope you don't take any offense! It's just usually what I default to; if someone's on a female character, I call them 'she' or 'her', and if someone's a guy character, I call them a 'he' or 'him'. I will try to make a conscious effort for you two, but I just want you to be aware that if I do slip up like that, I mean no ill will!

Congrats you guys! Join the gender-neutral pronoun train, we have an awesome dessert cart! Choo choo!

Nae: We can agree to disagree in conforming to cultural constructions. I'm really tempted to engage you in debate off of RPR, particularly because you opened up your post that way. Especially on the issue of gender and religious views regarding. It looks like you're inviting it, if I'm not mistaken.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure you're open to debate and I know it isn't allowed on the forums. I really don't understand why, having my free speech restricted is offensive, but I respect the decision. Which is good because trust me when I say I'm really holding my tongue, I think you could have maybe not mentioned your religious beliefs. No offense, but starting out your post that way when it was completely unnecessary to bring up rather soured anything else you had to say. I'm NOT trying to start anything here, just saying. I guess that's why the no politics and religion rule is in place.

Anyway, it's a good thing all our main Furcadia alts and persona are all gender unspecified! That's always been my Furcadia gender. ;P Thanks.

Everyone Else: Thanks, everyone! This is a really big change for me, but one I'm embracing as very positive.

I will say while I dont follow or use labels much, however I am happy you seem happy with whatever you decide to call yourself. ^^

In short: Dont worry about it, just be yourself and dont care what others have to say about it ^^

I'm really glad you found yourselves. It's always hard to be different, especially in a way that is not within the normal bounds of societal abnormality.

I will try hard to call you by the right pronouns, both of you.

I know we'd mentioned it the other day, so it was just on my mind while I was reading this, and thinking about culture and such. What I was meaning was that I agree with you to a degree, but not quite wholly. I'm sorry, looking back on it I can see how it would come off souring, but that was completely not my intention! I just want to let you know that I am indeed glad that you've come to this point of self-discovery! I think that it is simply that our two perspectives are very different, so we don't quite see how we come off to each other when we say things. I didn't have any intention at all of causing any harm, so I apologize if I did!

p.s. I am perfectly fine agreeing to disagree We don't have to have the exact same opinions to still be friends and supportive of each other!

Social construction can place an enormous amount of pressure on everyone. But especially on those who do not feel that it is "right", or "fits" them. Those of us who do feel like we "fit" the norms have a hard enough time as it is. Coming to the realizations you have shows strength of character and wisdom.

As I get older I've been learning more and more about non-standard gender identities, and while I most certainly consider myself male I also like to consider myself an ally of non-standard orientations and genders.

Many congratulations have been given, but something has yet to be said. Thank you for choosing to share your personal experiences with us. I look forward to the day where "coming out" is not such a big deal. But as it happens, these days, it takes bravery. So thank you.

Duh! You know things are all good. I think a little lively debate is healthy. I "argue" with a lot of my friends and enjoy every moment!

Thank you Lily, Ben!

Ben, I really appreciate that. I look forward to that day too. Thanks for being such an understanding individual! No problem, I really am pleased to share this experience with others. It's heartening, especially in a lovely community like we've got here!

I'm glad you figured yourself out. But I have to be as honest as you've trusted me to be over the years.

While it's good to figure out who we are, it's also good to remain flexible concerning other peoples' receptions of it. This is an issue I see a lot concerning gender, religion, race, and other hot-button topics; people will make a claim or statement, and automatically expect a positive reinforcement or special etiquette without being lenient on their end. Try not to fall into this trap.

Human Truths:

- Some people will call you the wrong thing, often without thinking about it or by error.
- Some people will not consider gender identity (or any topic) as big a deal as you do.
- Some people will have religious and other ideals that clash with your own (you can't be offended by restricted freedom of speech on RPR and then tell people like Nae to restrict their speech in the same breath) and will voice them in public forums where you present your own.

In short: Not all of the attention you receive when openly posting about touchy topics will be to your liking. And while it is good to know who you are, you will not always be happy with the echo that comes back when you yell into the canyon about it.

As long as you can remember that, negative feedback and other perceived sleights won't bother you. Good luck with your life -- It's the only one you've got.

(please excuse typos, phone/no glasses. Will fix later. Also might be a lil drumk. ilu guuuuys)

Congrads you two I'll try and respectfully remember to go for the theys.

I've also never seen much sense in genders classes, but I'm not personally sold on neutral terms across the board being a helpful concept. At least in a word to convey visual information sense. In the pigeon hole people into catagories dictating their likes/dislikes, personality, priorities and how they live their life sense. Yes, please that needs to be neutral. In that I have to wonder if saying oneself is not a gender just based on the perametres of that pigeonhole only reinforces it.

Not arguing, it's just my curiosity at work. I've never understood lables beyond their use as visual indicators or technical reference like "This person is more at risk of these dieases/issues because gender." or "This person has this bone structure and fat deposits because gender, remember while drawing." So yeah, the whole concept of seeking a label because labels are causing you grief goes over my head a bit.

Myself, I only went along with girl stuff at first because I thought it was the RULES then became much more I do what I want after I realised that wasn't the case, luckily at a very young age. I've always thought of that more as girls can like/ do anything rather then that I'm obviously notone for going off script. Also got the lack of interest in the great quest for a mate everyone always seems to be on. Reckon I could date a woman too, if it just so happened I connected with one on that level. S'why I'm curious really.

Maybe theres one of those catagories for me too, I don't know. I don't think I need it though and that's the main reason I'm saying these things. To me, you guys are awesome, just Degu and Tara and thats all you need to be. Doin' what you want with yourselves and your lives in your own Degu and Tara ways. If these more catagorised identifications makes you bothhappier don't think I'm not all for it even if I can't get my head around the purpose.

(Did I mention that ilu guys?)

ILU 2 Ibbles.

Though i don't know if it's different for me than to what it is for Tara but to back up a little on what i said in my original post, i kind of don't care what i am called. My main, Kingfisher, for that reason can swap between male and female at will depending on what it feels and in a sense that's kind of how my brain works but there's also a middle ground. I don't want the way anyone approaches me or treats me to change because honestly you guys have been fine all along, i just want to get it off my chest that i don't really identify as a solid gender.

Perhaps Masha you could explain to me later today on Skype or Furc what Gender Fluidity is? Like I've explained this is not entirely something i understand and a little guidance would be lovely

I had an epiphany when I was twenty, and had to receive a prostate exam for internal bleeding, and didn't enjoy it at all. Therefore, I knew I was straight.

... all jokes aside, congratulations to you both. Better late than never, finding out who and what you are.

I am very glad that the two of you have done some analysis and soul-searching and observed so much about yourselves. It is generally a healthy thing to regard your past experiences objectively in order to evaluate how they have shaped you, and I congratulate you both for understanding and recognizing something that you were not aware of before.

However, I am admittedly very curious to learn what you all think 'gender' actually means.

This is sex, not gender.

I'd also like to remind people that gender expression doesn't have to do with "masculine/feminine" preferences... at least, in my case it doesn't. I am not ambiguously gendered becaused I rejected the norms that were placed on me growing up. I am ambiguously gendered because I do not feel like a man nor a woman, and this has nothing to do with what "masculine" or "feminine" traits I may express, or things I may like.

Now, a bit on labels: labels are useful. The vast majority of other people aren't going to have a serious discussion with you on gender--or religion, or politics. So we use evocative words (labels) to summarize some aspect of ourselves to give people something to go on. We use words like "Christian" or "conservative" or "metalhead" and it evokes some immediate picture in the other person's mind. Is it perfect? Of course not! Sometimes there isn't a label that is just right, and so people will make a new one. Gender identity is one of those fields where traditionally we ONLY had "man" and "woman," and heterosexuality was just implied. As we progress as a culture we find new labels. In fringe groups first; if you pull out the word bi-gendered or a-gendered in "normal company," you're going to get some blank looks... but most LGBTQ activists will know what it means, in at least some way. These labels are still solidifying. (LGBTQ is a very evocative label in and of itself!)

Silly Gee! I know this very well (I hope, hahaha) and have no issues with polite disagreement and alternative views. I didn't suggest that Nae should restrict her free speech so much as I wanted to walk through the door that was opened. If I can't walk through an open door, however, I don't think it alright to be opened in the first place. I can handle the echo, I just like deeper insight!

Thankies Gee, Ibbly, Raymond! Also, what Heim said - nailed it!

Dwah, thankies my fine Wizard! Also, personally? I think gender means nothing. I mean that literally. It's an empty word trying to define something far more complex than it can handle. Now, sex is a solid concept - a reference to our typical biological binary. However, I feel 'gender' is a word used to point towards the social constructions one culture attaches to sex. It points towards perceptions and beliefs - personal truth taught through example from generation to generation - rather than any verifiable facts. These things also vary so massively across time and space that all I can conclude is that the meaning of gender is just another human construction, fluid and changing as such things have ever been and will ever continue to be.

In rough summary this.

I think gender is the sex one is mentally. Sex is the physical term for the bits between your legs, or the chromosome markup of your body, and is unrelated to what you identify as. I also think gender is most often a choice in the sense that you go with what feels best and is unrelated to your sex.

However, I'm hesitant to use the word 'choice' because just like sexual preferences, I think you are what you are and you just end up discovering it at some point in your life and go with what feels most comfortable, even though it's not technically a conscious choice. You can't choose to be gay, and you can't choose to be male, female or neutral gendered. You can't choose whom you fall in love with either. But I'm not sure how else to phrase it, so this will have to make due - I hope everyone understands what I'm getting at!

Truthfully I don't care what someone is, gender and sex alike. If you're awesome, you're awesome, and if I fall in love with someone I fall in love with them - gender and sex are totally irrelevant to me in that aspect. I could date a drag queen if they'd have me, I could date a herm, I could date a straight dude, I could date a lesbian, I could date a transsexual and anything else related to this; doesn't matter to me, the most important part to me is that we have things in common, are friends and in love.

I'm happy for you guys that you got yourselves sorted and are finally living in a way that feels complete and solid. I'm sorry for not being more ecstatic about it though, but this sort of thing is so normal for me due to the way I was raised and my own sexuality that I don't consider it too special anymore.

It IS nice knowing people are coming to terms with themselves, but I'm still rooting for the day that this isn't any more special than casually mentioning you're straight. That's the kind of world I hope we'll live in in our lifetime.

Kudos to you both for finding yourselves, and embracing it!