Got to thinking recently, especially since money is getting close to becoming a much bigger problem for me...
I'm certain that at least some of you are familiar with Hero Forge. If not: it's a free-to-use site that lets you build custom minis for your games. You can then (most of these requiring payment) order your (unpainted) custom mini in one of several different materials, export the 3D model to do more with elsewhere, export specialized graphics for use with TTRPG websites, or just save a screenshot to display where you want. The vast majority of options to work with are freely available without even needing an account, let alone money, and they have options included that can make building and digitally "painting" a figure go pretty fast and easy.
That said, even as flexible as it is, some things can take a lot of time to get right if you want something pretty specific. Furthermore, as much as it has and can do, it still definitely has some serious limits - limits that I've messed around enough to have sometimes found work-arounds for, and those work-arounds often require a lot more time to get right. (I'm also not sure how some of those work-arounds might impact things if used on a model that actually gets 3D printed or has its model exported. I've never ordered any, so I don't know if it might actually mess things up.) Some folks have been pretty impressed with what I've been able to pull off, whether they'd used Hero Forge themselves or not.
So the question is, then... would you pay someone to build something in Hero Forge for you? So far as I can tell, it's actually very easy to pass a completed figure on to someone else (though if you just want an image, I've been able to pull off some pretty nice shots despite not having access to things like alternate backgrounds, control of lighting, etc), allowing them to get any screenshots they want, order things made with that model, save the model if they have an account, edit the model (though some types of edits will cause some settings to reset to default), etc.
If so, do you have any suggestions for a reasonable price range? It feels inappropriate to use more unique art commissions as a pricing reference for basically just using a glorified dollmaker on someone's behalf, and especially doing a proper calculation of expenses, time, etc would end up pretty ridiculous (I'm slow at everything). This is just a stab at getting at least a little income here and there until I can actually get a job, and at least presently, I'd have to balance things in favor of greater chances of people finding the price more agreeable than just doing it themselves or going without. (And I guess if it turns out popular, somehow, I can up the price to be less inviting, I guess.
)
I'm certain that at least some of you are familiar with Hero Forge. If not: it's a free-to-use site that lets you build custom minis for your games. You can then (most of these requiring payment) order your (unpainted) custom mini in one of several different materials, export the 3D model to do more with elsewhere, export specialized graphics for use with TTRPG websites, or just save a screenshot to display where you want. The vast majority of options to work with are freely available without even needing an account, let alone money, and they have options included that can make building and digitally "painting" a figure go pretty fast and easy.
That said, even as flexible as it is, some things can take a lot of time to get right if you want something pretty specific. Furthermore, as much as it has and can do, it still definitely has some serious limits - limits that I've messed around enough to have sometimes found work-arounds for, and those work-arounds often require a lot more time to get right. (I'm also not sure how some of those work-arounds might impact things if used on a model that actually gets 3D printed or has its model exported. I've never ordered any, so I don't know if it might actually mess things up.) Some folks have been pretty impressed with what I've been able to pull off, whether they'd used Hero Forge themselves or not.
So the question is, then... would you pay someone to build something in Hero Forge for you? So far as I can tell, it's actually very easy to pass a completed figure on to someone else (though if you just want an image, I've been able to pull off some pretty nice shots despite not having access to things like alternate backgrounds, control of lighting, etc), allowing them to get any screenshots they want, order things made with that model, save the model if they have an account, edit the model (though some types of edits will cause some settings to reset to default), etc.
If so, do you have any suggestions for a reasonable price range? It feels inappropriate to use more unique art commissions as a pricing reference for basically just using a glorified dollmaker on someone's behalf, and especially doing a proper calculation of expenses, time, etc would end up pretty ridiculous (I'm slow at everything). This is just a stab at getting at least a little income here and there until I can actually get a job, and at least presently, I'd have to balance things in favor of greater chances of people finding the price more agreeable than just doing it themselves or going without. (And I guess if it turns out popular, somehow, I can up the price to be less inviting, I guess.
)
From the sites's TOS
You may download copies of the materials (image capture/screenshots) on Sky Castle Studios' website for personal, non-commercial use only. These personal, non-commercial purposes include networked and public viewing such as on social media or during remote or digital gameplay through authorized virtual tabletop applications. Sky Castle Studios grants you a license to use the site and service subject to these Terms and Conditions, and nothing herein shall be construed to transfer title of any Content or Character Designs, which as set forth above, are owned exclusively by Sky Castle Studios. under this license you may not:
use the materials for any commercial purpose;
attempt to decompile or reverse engineer any software contained on Sky Castle Studios' web site;
remove any copyright or other proprietary notations from the materials
So I don't think you can charge money to help someone with hero forge.
You may download copies of the materials (image capture/screenshots) on Sky Castle Studios' website for personal, non-commercial use only. These personal, non-commercial purposes include networked and public viewing such as on social media or during remote or digital gameplay through authorized virtual tabletop applications. Sky Castle Studios grants you a license to use the site and service subject to these Terms and Conditions, and nothing herein shall be construed to transfer title of any Content or Character Designs, which as set forth above, are owned exclusively by Sky Castle Studios. under this license you may not:
use the materials for any commercial purpose;
attempt to decompile or reverse engineer any software contained on Sky Castle Studios' web site;
remove any copyright or other proprietary notations from the materials
So I don't think you can charge money to help someone with hero forge.
Did see that. Believe it's a fuzzy area, since I wouldn't be selling... materials. Just my time on something others can already access, doing something that, if anything, should increase their sales.
They also have some parts that are obvious legal overkill in protecting themselves and claiming, like, everything. It's possible to interpret one part, for example, as a requirement that any user help HeroForge to obtain full rights to that user's characters, and anything else they might ask.
They also have some parts that are obvious legal overkill in protecting themselves and claiming, like, everything. It's possible to interpret one part, for example, as a requirement that any user help HeroForge to obtain full rights to that user's characters, and anything else they might ask.
Zelphyr wrote:
Did see that. Believe it's a fuzzy area, since I wouldn't be selling... materials. Just my time on something others can already access
This is usually how I would interpret it as well, but I'm not a lawyer. It's basically like paying you to act as a personal assistant in this one area.
I don't think I would spend money on something like this, but then again, I'm about as tech savvy a user as you're likely to meet and have trouble imagining people not knowing how to use heroforge on their own. I also have trouble imagining people not knowing how to use Wordpress on their own, and have built an entire career on people not knowing just that, so. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
What is this "word-press" of which you speak? Hmmmm...
Nah but in all seriousness, I am NOT a very tech-savvy person but even I've used Hero Forge. I'm not sure I'd pay for someone to make something in it...
However, I do know of another person who has actually had people send them Hero Forge created models or screenshots, and been asked to digitally paint over those with details or corrections Hero Forge can't make themselves? I'd guess it involves less technical art ability than drawing from scratch but I know there is a market for it. I don't know how big the market is though?
I also don't know if that counts as plagiarism, tracing an image and taking money for it on top...
Nah but in all seriousness, I am NOT a very tech-savvy person but even I've used Hero Forge. I'm not sure I'd pay for someone to make something in it...
However, I do know of another person who has actually had people send them Hero Forge created models or screenshots, and been asked to digitally paint over those with details or corrections Hero Forge can't make themselves? I'd guess it involves less technical art ability than drawing from scratch but I know there is a market for it. I don't know how big the market is though?
I also don't know if that counts as plagiarism, tracing an image and taking money for it on top...
Aardbei wrote:
However, I do know of another person who has actually had people send them Hero Forge created models or screenshots, and been asked to digitally paint over those with details or corrections Hero Forge can't make themselves? I'd guess it involves less technical art ability than drawing from scratch but I know there is a market for it. I don't know how big the market is though?
I also don't know if that counts as plagiarism, tracing an image and taking money for it on top...
I also don't know if that counts as plagiarism, tracing an image and taking money for it on top...
Now THAT sounds like exactly what their TOS was trying to prohibit. Hard to imagine this person being actually sued for it, but still, food for thought
Yeah, as Kim said, that probably is among the things they're trying to prevent, or at the very least a lot more iffy.
Anyway, near as I can figure, the legal things I'd have to keep in mind for what I'm thinking are basically:
As an aside, I recently dug up a few sites with similar services, though strictly modeling (no color or other screenshot niceties). Haven't looked through their terms yet and they all work a little differently but has the potential to provide a little more stylistic variety for those who actually want to get the mini. Couple of them, I also want to make sure similar items are featured as a norm of minis or something and they aren't actually stolen model bits. (I've noticed a lot of 2D dollmaker things appear to have a habit of actually stealing pieces from each other, and I know that HF does offer one or two formats of file download, so... gotta try to make sure I'm not supporting art theft.)
Oh, also, looks like companies have realized that minis are popular enough that at least one company specializes in developing a model to print/forge from artworks provided to them, and at least a couple other 3D printing services also offer design & modelling services (as well as a place to just upload your own models) while also specifying game minis as among the things they'll make. So for those who want something really totally custom, those options are out there. I don't intend to try finding some way to help with that, though.
So far, (and this includes responses I got in another place I asked about this) it's seeming like this idea would probably be a no-go. Not surprised or anything, and I'll still consider further input if there is any. And if nothing else, the legal stuff was just enough to be sorta interesting to ponder without getting too heavy. (If someone who's actually studied relevant law has corrections to make on my suppositions, I encourage you to PM me instead of continuing to fill this thread with more legal talk.)
Lemme squish my ramble-y thought typing
What's interesting there is that I'm not sure who would be held at fault - the person making edits to materials they were provided to be edited, or the person who requested the edits and provided the materials. Without at least some paperwork protection, it'd likely fall onto the one doing the edits, especially if they specify that HeroForge edits are a thing they'll do for money. If they could pull a solid enough argument (which would probably need actual proof) that they had placed the burden of basically not requesting illegal/unauthorized edits on the client, maybe they'd be able to get out without much worse than a "now you know, so stop" kinda thing? I've never looked into how those sorts of claims actually pan out, though. I imagine that if it does, there's gotta be a whole chunk of law out there supporting it by defining actions performed as a service as being equivalent to the client performing those actions, but I have no idea what that would mean in a case where the client only wants the end product for personal use when it's only commercial use that's forbidden.
There are probably cases and papers and stuff out there about exactly such things... and it'd probably take a lot of time and effort for me to understand how it was worked out what to do. Not feeling up to that right now.
Oh, and yeah, if I remember right, tracing counts as derivative work. There's some point where it's legally acceptable if enough is changed about the work, and sometimes satirical work gets a little extra flexibility, but just directly tracing or making minor edits (other than, like, personal or educational use) fall under plagiarism. That's why when using references in art, you're supposed to use multiple references and avoid making your work look too much like any one of them.
There are probably cases and papers and stuff out there about exactly such things... and it'd probably take a lot of time and effort for me to understand how it was worked out what to do.
Not feeling up to that right now.Oh, and yeah, if I remember right, tracing counts as derivative work. There's some point where it's legally acceptable if enough is changed about the work, and sometimes satirical work gets a little extra flexibility, but just directly tracing or making minor edits (other than, like, personal or educational use) fall under plagiarism. That's why when using references in art, you're supposed to use multiple references and avoid making your work look too much like any one of them.
Anyway, near as I can figure, the legal things I'd have to keep in mind for what I'm thinking are basically:
- Clearly define that I am, indeed, providing a service and not a good/product. (Mostly as a precaution.) And be careful that all my statements and actions involved support that.
- Avoid making any edits or adjustments outside of HeroForge's own system (possibly with the exception of things available through other services they explicitly have a partnership with, but I don't think that includes anything intended for making edits).
- As an extra step, not even offer to take the screenshots for anyone. Only provide the link to the model, and anything following is between that person and HeroForge. (The selling of goods involves an exchange of ownership of an actual thing; even passing off a file has the potential to muddy the waters, but if I only provide a link belonging to HF to content also owned by HF and never try to claim ownership of anything, I'm relatively sure there can't be any reasonable claim made that I'm selling/distributing materials for profit.)
- If I were to ever get a subscription, I'd definitely need to check out how that might affect things. Some features would be an obvious no-go, and some features would be irrelevant. There are also features in the modeler that are restricted to subscribers, though, and I'm not sure if, like, a restricted model piece for example would be automatically removed for anyone not logged into an account with a current subscription; and if it's not automatically removed, if they might consider that to be a violation, since it'd be effectively providing (access to) a thing to someone when they haven't paid for access to that thing. Probably best to avoid incorporating anything I don't know a given person already has access to in any case.
As an aside, I recently dug up a few sites with similar services, though strictly modeling (no color or other screenshot niceties). Haven't looked through their terms yet and they all work a little differently but has the potential to provide a little more stylistic variety for those who actually want to get the mini. Couple of them, I also want to make sure similar items are featured as a norm of minis or something and they aren't actually stolen model bits. (I've noticed a lot of 2D dollmaker things appear to have a habit of actually stealing pieces from each other, and I know that HF does offer one or two formats of file download, so... gotta try to make sure I'm not supporting art theft.)
Oh, also, looks like companies have realized that minis are popular enough that at least one company specializes in developing a model to print/forge from artworks provided to them, and at least a couple other 3D printing services also offer design & modelling services (as well as a place to just upload your own models) while also specifying game minis as among the things they'll make. So for those who want something really totally custom, those options are out there. I don't intend to try finding some way to help with that, though.
So far, (and this includes responses I got in another place I asked about this) it's seeming like this idea would probably be a no-go.
Not surprised or anything, and I'll still consider further input if there is any. And if nothing else, the legal stuff was just enough to be sorta interesting to ponder without getting too heavy. (If someone who's actually studied relevant law has corrections to make on my suppositions, I encourage you to PM me instead of continuing to fill this thread with more legal talk.)
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