Community Discussion #5: February 16th 2013

Part 2 of 3

Nero: One can always double check with an editor. Find a friend, peer or mentor that has the same or more experience as you do, and get a second opinion.

Copper_Dragon:

Kim wrote:

Is there a way to double check your assumptions before putting the character into play?

Wait, what assumptions are we talking about here?

StarArmy: You can give a character real flaws and you can talk with your fellow players.

Rubix: When designing my special characters I always try to make sure that no matter how strong they may appear they have an equal if not greater weakness.

Nero: One thing I really like about games with a specific GM/storytelling staff/whatever is that all the characters are vetted through the same person or system. This at least offers a similar second opinion. Sometimes it's even relatively unbiased

StarArmy: We we do on SARP is we have a character approval process where the GM or a moderator stamps new characters. This is a form of quality control. You can make your RPs "semi-open" and ask that players chat with you before you let their characters in, which can be your filter for overpowered PCs.

Sadrain: I would say, give weaknesses and flaws to your characters, even if they are something as mighty as deity. Or warn that you play only in certain settings, like with other deities, so the power is not a problem.

StarArmy: What we do^

Tailbone: If someone is trying to make their characters as memorable as possible by exaggerating too many of their individual aspects - to a point where they feel unbelievable and more like a burden to accept - I'd argue that they've lost focus of why they're roleplaying in the first place. It shouldn't be about showing off to that degree, so yes, it can be a problem. That attitude spreads to the way they write and behave in general too, typically.

They just need to remember what their purpose is in the first place. Are you here to show off and seek approval or are you trying to write a good story?

Pay respect to your settings - stay consistent with the given territory. If your character is of any specific culture or job, do your research. Never forgot that the more they come across as real people the better of a job you've done - always consider their potential limitations and flaws at the same time you're considering their strengths.

I suppose not everyone of us has a filter for knowing when something is 'too much' so perhaps it is often worth it to ask a second opinion.

PenGryphon2007: I'd say, try to give them a problem they can't solve with their specialness and see what happens.

StarArmy: QUESTION for everyone: What are some ways you as a roleplayer can make other characters feel more special when they're feeling unimportant/unnecessary?

Kim: Copper: I mean, for the most over powered characters I've ever met, their players also seem to insist the loudest that their characters are "balanced". They are working with a set of assumptions about what constitutes balance in the games that they play that are probably different than the rest of the players. How would they find that out if they wanted to check?

Kim: Pen, I love that suggestion!

Nuclear_Dingoz: I always try to make sure that whatever is going on, the special character even with thier specialness. needs others.

Nuclear_Dingoz: they can't do it alone.

Sadrain: I like what Tailbone wrote.

I agree with all of it, quite deeply.

As for what StarArmy said, that goes for closed setting role plays, such as group role plays here, but in general sense, when you make a character and start looking for partners from him/her, how to deal with this problem then? Although you can make your own setting, of course, but still.

Nuclear_Dingoz: what ever (it) is lol

Kim: StarArmy: I try to find an area where my characters are weak where their characters are strong, and work in a challenge only they can address as naturally as possible.

Kim: *scrolls up* Tailbone, that was very concise and great advice, thank you for that.

StarArmy: It is important to make a new player feel special right off the bat? Or should they have to "work their way up" starting as a "red shirt?"

PenGryphon2007: In answer to Kim's question for Copper: (if you don't mind) If that's the case, they could always ask those they are Roleplaying with for suggestions in why their character doesn't seem balanced. Get the view of those they're playing with, and keeping an open mind, or at least be willing to explain why they think their character is balanced.

Kim: Requoting this in case people missed it:

StarArmy wrote:

QUESTION for everyone: What are some ways you as a roleplayer can make other characters feel more special when they're feeling unimportant/unnecessary?

PenGryphon2007: Oh man, honestly? I feel like I struggle with that a lot.

Sadrain: Pay particular attention to that character, make up an event that involves them. Nothing that goes against your own character, but there are ways, especially with sudden events, like where their particular set of skills is needed. And if that goes beyond character, and the player is also feeling left out, wait on him/her in the game, chat outside and find way to bring them back in full force.

Kim: StarArmy: I would argue that a new player should be made to feel wanted and included right off the bat, but that in a very established setting, it is extremely important that people prove their ability to play responsibly and fairly before they are handed world-altering power (such as nobility, rulership, any position where they can influence what other players get to play and do).

Tailbone: That's a hard one! I want to say that you should be sure to engage them and make sure they feel welcome in the story as much as possible, but that can often be impossible without your own characters going against their grain. I have a couple distinctly rude and anti-social characters who don't really care about others, so regardless of my OOC feelings, this can cause a real problem for me. This is something that may be necessary to fix through game moderation and 'acts of god' as Sadrain suggests.

PenGryphon2007: Sadrain has some great ideas there.

Kim: Everyone! Quick! What is your favorite specially powered or character that is the "most" in literature or film?

SeraphicStar: I'm sorry for my terrible lateness, but real life decided to kick my butt!

Sadrain: As a player where majority of characters are hard to involve or anti-social, I really know that pain, especially if other has the same, so, I like to even it out with some more social character in the game, who actually works to involve others - my and other player's characters. Otherwise, it's up for plot to tie them together and actually let actions/events speak louder than words. Great friendships can be born!

Nero: StarArmy: Your first question about unimportant feeling players seems to be about players that have made less-special characters and if we don't help them find the enjoyment in such things, they may become a snowflake-special character maker. I think it is critical to make these players feel useful and welcomed before they slide down that slippery slope so it's good you brought it up.
I'm going to call them pre-special characters should be given opportunities to shine occasionally at the (possibly few) things they are good at. This sometimes requires that more experienced players(and/or characters) hold back and let the new one do something even if they might be able to do it better. Let them have their moments and they will feel like they have contributed.

Tailbone: Also, people can be welcome and simultaneously at the bottom of the ladder! You don't have to be unwelcoming in the process of making sure someone still is earning their credibility and trustworthiness. Also, uuuh.

Lorvilran: Are we talking magic or can it be powers of deduction?

Sadrain: I loved Storm and Wolverine, Rogue and Gambit from X-men cartoons. Storm because she was wise and beautiful, Wolverine and his attitude was lovely, similar for Rogue and Gambit.

Kim: Sadrian: Are you talking like a Bond handler type character that can hire antisocials to team them up against their natural grain?

StarArmy: I'm not a magic fan so my favorite characters are the ones that are "competency porn" where they are really really good at their job.

StarArmy: Captain Picard, for example, is an awesome captain.

Sadrain: Yes, something like that, Kim, especially since one of my anti-social characters really is an assassin for hire so she can be teamed up with someone...

Tailbone: Admittedly I do love people who are the best at what they do, plain and simple - I have deeper respect for people who work hard and pave their way to mastery and success than those who got handed incredible abilities.

Kim: I think Saruman is one of my favorite special characters.

StarArmy: Bruce Lee was a good example of a real-life special character.

Sadrain: But now that I am grown up, I honestly don't have a favorite character from fiction anymore, nothing that would be really known, at least. Still, my mentioned X-men are quite awesome!

I like to mixture various gifts with hard work - like you have to go trough trauma to obtain them and/or learn to control them.

ToBeContinued: I'd say my favorite is Grand Admiral Thrawn, also hi.

Sadrain: And then work hard to become better with them, the really best, and know what you're doing.

Sadrain: And hello.

Lorvilran: Powers of deduction included Sherlock Holmes. Otherwise I would have to say the main character of the pendragon series, I haven't read it in a while though.

ToBeContinued: And yeah I'm on the boat of people who do it smart and work hard, etc are more badass than people who just get special powers and pewpew everything down.

Kim: So in a lot of these examples of powerful characters from literature or movies, they're all still surrounded by other people who are majorly special in some way. It just doesn't stop them from standing out -- what makes them so awesome without breaking the believability barrier? Are they good role models?

Rubix: Varies. Sherlock Holmes, Harry Dresden, Han Solo (DUH), Indiana Jones, um um James Bond, Wolverine.

Rubix: OH and I love the main character from Sneakers.

Kim: Sherlock Holmes is a great example of a real life super power, eiditic memory!

Sadrain: Most of them have just one aspect they excel at, they are not invincible and have something 'special' about their personality - like extra witty lines or deep wisdom that makes them stand out.

Rubix: http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0037430/?ref_=tt_cl_t3 Marty Bishop.

He was a normal guy, doing extraordinary things.

StarArmy: It's important to be consistent with your abilities to keep them believable.

Earendill: Oh my, it's a TBC

Lorvilran: all truely special characters have a watson.

Tailbone: Not always. The Riddler is a good example of one of my favorites. 'cause really, when you can run around tormenting superheroes with sheer brain power and creativity, especially from the motive that it's just fun and fulfilling, you deserve some credit. He's sort of like Sherlock Holmes gone wrong; to be able to stand out among other villains largely meta-human or equipped in some destructive way, yet just be a man in a nice suit, is impressive. He excels, but works hard in all the wrong ways.

Lorvilran: well maybe not but the most memorable ones in my mind do.

Nuclear_Dingoz: I have to go, I cant wait to read the rest of thi discussion.

PenGryphon2007: And I think too is that as powerful as they are, they're still growing--acquiring knowledge or ability that allows them to develop as a character. They aren't "static" or stuck where they are with their ability.

StarArmy: See you.

ToBeContinued: I think they stand out because of their personality and how they handle things in their unique way. Humans are social animals after all and attracted to personalities more so I believe (which is why sitcomes are so populair I'm guessing), brain over brawn and such.

Aldo yes, it's a TBC, saw this on my facebook and decided to drop by :p

Kim: Bye Nuclear! Thanks for participating!

Kim: Pen, that's a great point. Do you think it's important to "leave room" in a powerful character so they have somewhere to grow to?

StarArmy: Absolutely. It's lonely at the top and when your character is so powerful that it's difficult to be challenged in the roleplay, it may be time to have him/her retire and start with someone that has vulnerability.

PenGryphon2007: I think the ability to grow is important in any character. When I created Sterling, I had him figured out to be kind of the typical hunter--slays werewolves/vamps/etc--but when I was RPing him with other monsters, I quickly found out that while he was specialized, there was still a lot he didn't know. So he had to grow, and thus changed.

Sadrain: It's good to leave them something to aspire for, like revenge, which can be the most wrong motives of all, but it keeps them moving and they might 'grow out of it' as well. However, it's interesting to be in a game with character who is bored of everything or feels stuck and get them moving.

Jane: Good Evening

Sadrain: And, yes, I agree with StarArmy.

Hello, Jane.

Kim: Sadrian: That sounds like a good way to let other people feel like they are special, by making them a focus of a bored super character.

ToBeContinued: Evening.

Kim: Do you think it's important that special characters also have special weaknesses? What about mundane weaknesses? Do they still apply? How do you offset this in your own characters?

Tailbone: No, not those words again Kim!

Nero: StarArmy, you asked earlier if it is important to make a new player start as a redshirt and work their way up and I wanted to address that, even if the point is now lost. Redshirt is the extreme example, but to a lesser extent, yes it is important. In this game I've been playing for 13 years, I am somewhere in the upper end of the middle. We all started out playing the weakest sort of character(which is still certainly a PC and well above the NPC population average), new people join all the time and they also start at the bottom. Almost everyone feels that it is unfair that they have to start at the bottom, but most of them eventually come to agree that it is a good idea. This is a very complicated game and new players just aren't going to know enough about it to survive in the deeper waters. In some ways, it is a mentoring program for the players and their characters.

PenGryphon2007: (mundane would just refer to typical weaknesses normal humans/people would have)

Kim: Sorry Tailbone, it's this stupid language. I'll try telepathy for the next chat.

Kim: Thanks Pen!

StarArmy: You guys have seen the Tomb Raider reboot game right? Lara had become this invincible death machine so they had the came deal with her younger, vulnerable self because it's someone we can get attached to.

Jane: I personally prefer mundane weaknesses. This gives the character a nice contrast. For example the fear of water, or things that for a normal person is normal. Maybe a character who is super intelligent but is not able to follow a simple cooking recipe.

Alecia: My superpowered characters do have weaknesses normal people don't have, and I really like to make those weaknesses direct consequences of the superpowers, if possible.

Jane: *are

Copper_Dragon: They need weaknesses that fit them, no matter what those may be. I don't strive to give them weaknesses on such labels as those. I give them weaknesses based around them, that fits them, doing away with labels like that.

StarArmy: Thanks for your roleplay Nero, I agree.

Sadrain: Yes, that as well, Kim.
And both special and quite mundane weaknesses matter. They might be afraid of water, not because they will melt, but because they have bad memories of drowning, and it could be huge drawback, even if they can fly and shoot laser beams. Similar for height (again, even if they can fly! Because what's the point of flying if you get scared?). In fact, I rarely find a good special weakness. Most of them are quite regular. Not Kyrptonite, really.

Earendill: What le Copper said

Jane: I agree with Copper dragon.

ToBeContinued: Me too :p

Jane: And I agree with Sadrain too xD

Copper_Dragon: I've got a paladin who, based on those labels, has a variety of "mundane" and "special" weaknesses, but I've never seen the weaknesses under those lights. I've seen them as weaknesses that fit what kind of character he is, what his backstory has done to him up to this point, &c.

Rubix: Hmm, not sure about that one Kim. I think they should have weaknesses that apply especially to them. For instance my Draeval while being incredibly gifted with his time powers cannot always act on them, and his powers drain his life energy. So yes it's special to him, but I wouldn't say it's special over all?

Kim: I'm really digging that idea of powers as weaknesses, or weaknesses as direct consequence of powers, that people are bringing up.

Sadrain: I don't strive to give them weaknesses of any kinds, usually they just develop normally as I write them, or play them. Of any kind, and then they fit exactly right in. It would be wrong to just pull random one out of hat and glue it to a random character.

StarArmy: I can't scroll up as far as I want to.

Where do I get a log?

PenGryphon2007: I have a good character example: Arien Chase is a teleporter. However it comes and goes--so sometimes I'll roll a dice. On the other hand, I limit his ability to teleport to physical limits: He can only teleport as far as he can walk in a day. Any farther and he risks hurting himself/killing himself over it; likewise he can only teleport to places he's been to. Not to those he made up.

Alecia: StarAmy: http://www.rprepository.com/community/forumthread.php?t=615&p=137

Jane: I agree Sadrain, but I actually pulled a weakness out of a hat and glued it onto my character for the sheer purpose to give her a weakness that has nothing to do with her, and was just based on consequences in her past.

Kim: Maybe for the example of fear of water, yes, that's a "mundane" weakness that anyone could have, but perhaps when taken to extremes it becomes the non-mundane version.

Sadrain: And those sound absolutely logical restrictions to not make him overpowered, not even real weaknesses. Maybe except for the coming/going power part.

StarArmy: Thank you, Alecia!

Kim: Jane: If the weakness is based on consequences of her past, what do you mean the weakness has nothing to do with her?

PenGryphon2007: oh good point; those wouldn't be weaknesses...just limitations. Thanks, Sadrain! I suppose in that case--his weakness is a good-lookin' chick.

Sadrain: Then it wasn't pulled out like that, if it was based off her past.

Not in my opinion, at least.

Jane: I have a few characters that have rather special powers, but their weakness is that they are scared of using them. A weakness too ...

Tailbone: Oh, I love powers as weaknesses. 'Blessed With Suck' is one of my favorite dynamics!

Sadrain: Hahahaa, that surname is a giveaway, then!

Jane: Kim: I mean it has nothing to do with her actual concept (design) but with her background.

Kim: Since Jane brought up the idea of gluing on weaknesses: Is it a valid strategy in your eyes to just pick out random flaws in order to look balanced on paper, or do the flaws need to be as carefully considered as the powers?

Sadrain: That, indeed, is a weakness Jane.
And as someone already said, weaknesses have to fit the characters.

Kim: It sounded like flaws that make sense are very popular. I'm just wondering if the reverse is acceptable in your eyes.

Copper_Dragon: I hate tacking on flaws just to be "balanced"--they've got to be weaknesses you're willing to play out and will, ultimately, enjoy playing too.

Earendill: Powers that make sense?

Ben: Hey guys! Dropping in to say hi but I can't stay

This looks like a great discussion.

Jane: It should suit the char, but has not to make sense.

StarArmy: Have a random character flaws and weaknesses generator: http://www.springhole.net/writing_roleplaying_randomators/character-flaws.htm

Kim: Hi Ben! Bye Ben! Read the summaru!

ToBeContinued: Personally I think proper weaknesses require more attention that the sthrengths of a character.

Jane: Like irrational fears ...

Alecia:

Sadrain wrote:

I don't strive to give them weaknesses of any kinds, usually they just develop normally as I write them, or play them. Of any kind, and then they fit exactly right in. It would be wrong to just pull random one out of hat and glue it to a random character.

I've just seen this in the log and I totally agree with it! I think if one tries to view things logically/realistically, the weaknesses just pop up on their own.

ToBeContinued: than*

Kim: Oh my god StarArmy, I am bookmarking the everloving crap out of that.

Copper_Dragon: I once tacked on "being lulled into a trance by music" to my vampire, and then I realized later on I only did it just to be balanced on paper, and I ultimately hated it as a weakness and forced myself to go back and rewrite the character in a way that made everyone--my fellow players and especially myself-- happy.

Ben: Oh! Oh! I find that if you pick random flaws during character creation, it can really help in the creation to the character. They go together!

StarArmy: They have a bunch of other great ones there too like a secret generator and a motivation one.

Jane: I agree with Ben

Kim: Certain character flaws are great to build a character around, it's true!

PenGryphon2007: I think listed weaknesses should be something that your character would run into at some point; not something they would never encounter.

StarArmy: It's humorous to imagine Copper Dragon's character being defeated by his archnemesis, the portable MP3 player.

Sadrain: I can't really use generators like that. Because I don't create character for sake of it, I already have an idea what he/she will be like, then I get a visual and rest lays out quite clearly for me, so generators would only add too much sprinkle to it and clash with my original idea. But generally, it's fun to have a look at them.

Tailbone: I preach consistency in all things - as usual, stay consistent, their flaws need to make sense to their psychology as well as their physicality. Ideas for what should be their strengths and weaknesses should crop up naturally if you understand who they are, how they behave, and the sort of lives they've lived thus far. A random generator is a poor tool.

Copper_Dragon: *snortlaughs* Nice one, Star.

Earendill: I usually decided on flaws and what not -during- RP, depending on whatever would fit the situation my character is in. That way you're sure you'll at leats get to RP it out once.

Sadrain: I will agree with Tailbone. Although it could inspire, but you must adjust it, not just plaster it from the generator...

StarArmy: "Friday, friday gettin' down on Friday!" Vampire: *Passes out*

Kim: Do you think that characters can qualify as "specially powered" or "specially empowered" if their most defining characteristic is a special DISability? Is this the same as Tailbone's "blessed with suck"?

Part 1 - Part 2 - Part 3